'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by klagermkii on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:22AM (#21193250)

I think the main issue is that the choice of the words "privilege" or "right", when used by enough people, has the power to set societal expectations. Why should a privilege ever be extended to more people, the people who have them should just consider themselves lucky they aren't taken away.

And I think there are plenty of things that are "privileges", but it's based on the idea that it is impossible to extend it to everyone. Being admitted to a top school is impossible to extend to everyone by the definition of a top school. Being believed in a court of law when it's just your word over someone else's, but being more trusted because you belong to a particular group is a privilege. Being let off with a warning at a traffic stop because you have the right face is a privilege. Living in the "good" part of town is a privilege.

Surviving a traffic stop without being shot by the cop should not be called a privilege. Being able to receive a competent education should not be called a privilege. These are things that can be extended to everyone and the words should reflect it, so that it's clear which things we should be fighting for, vs the things that are impossible for everyone to have.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by akiselev on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:47AM (#21193544)

Wouldn't the privilege be in the ability to exercise rights without paying a price like so many groups have had to in our history?

This all sounds like a confusing semantics game.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by klagermkii on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:35PM (#21194085)

Every right has been resisted at some point. It doesn't drift in and out of privilege status depending on how must resistance is being applied at any one moment.

A right gains its power from people's belief that it should be universally granted, and that they will stick up for others when that right gets breached. Once a thing gets redefined as a privilege there is no expectation for people to stand up for other privilege.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by beerandt on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @12:57AM (#21200164)

A privilege is something granted/gifted to fewer than everyone, while not harming those that are excluded.

The left has tried to redefine harm to include "unequal result or outcome," which makes the entire principle meaningless.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by merpnderp on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:25AM (#21193295)

We're definitely in the crazy years. A conversation about a Chinese crackdown on freedom, a country that literally throws minorities in jail for being minorities, devolves into a squabble over people in the US not feeling entitled to express their opinions, even though the letter of the law, every single politician, billions in private funding amongst corporations, banks and non-profits, does everything possible to ensure people feel entitled to express their opinion.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @09:53AM (#21192296)

Can you give me an example of something a non-white, non-middle class person can't say or do in public? Maybe it's my limited world-view, but I can't think of anything specific.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by kick on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:56AM (#21192981)

Picking up trash on your own lawn (the officer involved in this faced no penalty and is currently getting paid in full until 2020 because he resigned).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzjkmsKr6sM

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:27AM (#21193328)

As a minority male, I can pretty much say and do anything on public that a white person can say and do.

In addition, I am not viewed by a certain portion of the population as a oppressor based on my skin color.

If anything, sometimes I feel sorry for my white friends and am happy for my minority privilege of not being held responsible for things my ancestors did long before I was born.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by asimpletune on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:26AM (#21192657)

If you’re an African American male you have to be very careful how you express anger, however justified it may be.

If you’re a female, it’s more difficult to be taken seriously or heard in meetings, and people constantly talk over you.

If you’re basically anything that’s not white, people will embarrassingly coddle or patronize you, if they’re not prejudicing you.

I never really thought about specific examples until I read this comment, but this is what came to mind.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by laheyBro on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:34AM (#21193407)

What a ridiculous statement. The US is the least oppressed society in history. Especially for women and minorities.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by dekhn on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:41AM (#21193475)

there were laws through the 1960s and I think even later that prevents african americans and other non-caucasians from marrying caucasians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia required Supreme Court to override laws that violated the constitution.

If that's your standard for "least oppressed", I think your standards are very low.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by laheyBro on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:46AM (#21193541)

Believe it or not, a lot of things have changed since the 60's. Name a society with more rights, more opportunities for the historically oppressed. Deny reality all you want, you're only hurting yourself.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by jessaustin on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @01:26PM (#21194664)

Canada? Anywhere in western/northern Europe?

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by mikestew on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:45AM (#21193516)

The US is the least oppressed society in history.

What is ridiculous is to think that is an argument against the truth of parent's statement.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by laheyBro on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:49AM (#21193562)

The parent statement is objectively not truth.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by klyrs on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:12PM (#21193822)

You're attempting to refute an absolute statement with a relative one; "--- are oppressed" / "--- are less oppressed than ever." These two statements are logically consistent.

I question your definition of "objectively" in this situation

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by mikestew on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:59AM (#21193687)

Of the your two comments thus far, neither is even remotely what one might call a counter-argument. "Nuh-uh!" does not count. There's still time to edit the comment, care to throw me something more substantial to work with?

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by danso on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:55PM (#21194310)

What does "least oppressed society", a comparative term, have to do with the claims made by the parent commenter? That designation does not preclude the existence of any disparity or injustice.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by andrepd on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @01:49PM (#21194947)

Where do you even begin to pick apart a statement like this... The US is completely fucked with regards to racial tensions, it's a complete shithole in that respect, for the standard of a developed nation. Race permeates public consciousness to a degree not really seen anywhere in Western Europe. Until the 60s there was institutionalised discrimination for crying out loud. Even today there is a measured, objective disparity in: arrests, convictions, police brutality, not to mention job applications and other areas. Can you compare this to a country like Spain or the Netherlands?

"Least oppressed society in HISTORY", this reads like a Trump tweet. Sure is some egregious lack of self-awareness.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by dekhn on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:04AM (#21192410)

Sure, if you (10 years ago) smoked a joint on the street, and you were black, you carried a far far higher risk of being imprisoned.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:14AM (#21192524)

Where's the parallel between doing something illegal (10 years ago) and being able to comment on the political climate without fearing for your life/livelihood?

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by cblades on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:00AM (#21193012)

The unequal application of the law based on race. Equal treatment under the law is just as much a fundamental right as freedom of expression is and, arguably, equal treatment prevents the subtle and slow erosion of other rights.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by munk-a on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:07PM (#21195160)

The fact that African Americans are the most likely people by race to be stripped of their right to representation and political expression by a wide margin.

To clarify - this is via them losing access to representation by being deemed a felon, and a lot more African Americans are sentenced with drug possession or intent to distribute than any other racial group proportionally.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by laheyBro on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:41AM (#21193477)

lol What an awful example.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by notduncansmith on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:22AM (#21192610)

Depending on where you are, simply leaving the house. Black people are more likely to be "randomly" stopped, more likely to be searched at a stop, and more likely to be arrested at a stop. Other statistics highlight similar issues faced by other minorities.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/black-people-more...

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:41AM (#21192820)

The article you linked draws more of a link between income levels and police violence than it does race. They explicitly say that the crime rates of low-income neighborhoods, populated by majority minority groups, are higher than that of more affluent neighborhoods. Furthermore most of the injuries happen when the person stopped has a gun, regardless of race.

Not great, and certainly unacceptable, but not equivalent to not being able to "simply leave the house".

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by dekhn on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:20AM (#21193232)

if you want to deny the lived experience of african americans in the US, you're free to do so (it falls under free speech) but frankly I think making ivory tower-level statements like this ignores an extraordinary amount of evidence that african americans (and many non-caucasians) experience systemic racism that affects their economic opportunities and health.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:03PM (#21193732)

I grew up in a majority non-white area, and am now subsequently living in another majority non-white area. I can count on one hand the number of beat cops I've seen in those cities. Seems to me if there's a higher crime rate, the amount of cops increases, and the likelihood you get stopped increases as well.

On another note, when did Caucasian become a term for white people? As an actual Caucasian, having immigrated to the US from a region near Caucasus, I don't get why people use the term so loosely. The debate is about skin color, just use skin color.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by andrepd on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @01:53PM (#21194996)

Parent: "substantive objective measurements show that nonwhite people are subject to systemic racism"

You: "yeah but I grew up in so and so and I never saw anything like that, plus I have a friend who is black and bla bla bla"

Come on...

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:11PM (#21195204)

The "substantive objective measurements" don't even need to be debunked, the article does that itself. My example wasn't to illustrate "no discrimination doesn't happen" it was to illustrate the fact that maybe, the relative wealth of different geographic areas, combined with racial demographics and crime rates, could have more to do with policing practices that JUST skin color. I specifically didn't bring up any of my multicultural friends or whatever, because my argument is not "I didn't see anything therefore it isn't there" but "fewer cops mean fewer people get stopped". Urban density which means that 1 cop can cover more people, and higher crime rate which means more cops are likely out on the street instead of on traffic duty, equate to more people getting stopped by police.

Go ahead and reduce my argument to a strawman and put words into my mouth, but don't act like you're contributing to the conversation.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by andrepd on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:17PM (#21195289)

The data shows that income is by far the biggest factor, but also that it is not the only factor. Income is the biggest differentiator, and therefore the priority issue to tackle, but "skin color" discrimination does happen and it is a factor to explain these disparities. These are two separate things that are important to remember.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:47PM (#21195666)

I agree. My belief is that the racial biases of the police don't come from beliefs about racial supremacy, but due to the patterns that emerge due to the income factor. If we can solve the first issue, the biases will disappear. This is supported by the fact that the race of the officer doesn't appear to be a factor in police violence cases. It seems, to me at least, that removing the root of the bias would be vastly more effective than trying to instill counter-biases.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by dr_dshiv on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:48PM (#21194230)

To introduce some humor into this deeply humorless world (this is a South Park comment thread), try hearing the word "Caucasian" as "Cock-Asian."

Ha! Gets me chuckling during every intense race-relation debate. I can't not hear it, now!

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by CocaKoala on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:55AM (#21192974)

Exercise their second amendment rights? Note the differences in the stories of Philando Castile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile) and Brandon Vreeland (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/men-who-walked-into-dear...).

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by neetdeth on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:57PM (#21199570)

How about Erik Scott? [1] Or Daniel Shaver? [2]

These are just two incidents that immediately spring to mind to counter your cherry picking. White people are not free from the danger of being shot by police. In fact, there is evidence [3] that white people may be more vulnerable than black people in any given scenario, because scrutiny on police use of force has been applied disproportionately in cases of black victims.

1. https://reason.com/2012/06/12/family-of-west-point-graduate-...

2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/0...

3. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27...

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by mikestew on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @11:41AM (#21193467)

As a white man with upper-middle class money to afford good lawyers, I can tell a cop to piss off when they're out of line and suffer fewer repercussions than others. I might go to jail for the evening (no biggie, I've traveled that road), but come Monday morning me and Ms. Pit Bull Lawyer, Esq. go smooth it over with the judge. If it even gets that far...'cuz, you know, I'm white.

This could all be in my head, but based on reporting and anecdotes from friends, I firmly believe that if a cop's being a dick and I call him/her on it, the cuffs will go on much more slowly than if I were another color or lived in a different neighborhood.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @12:08PM (#21193787)

Anybody with good enough lawyers can tell a cop to piss off, you might even get the cop on a hate crime if you're non-white. I've got the same amount of anecdotes to suggest the opposite. My dad got pulled over because he didn't stop at a stop sign for the mandatory 3-mississippi in our neighborhood, and no lack of melanin in his skin would have been enough to prevent the ticket.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by mikestew on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:15PM (#21195256)

What I hear you saying is that in a hypothetical world where one can change race like changing a shirt, when confronted by on overbearing cop you'd choose "Black Man, size M" as soon as you'd choose "White Man, size L". And whilst telling the fine officer to piss off, you stand equal chance of living long enough to even need a lawyer no matter which race you chose that day. If I'm hearing correctly, I strongly disagree, but such are different perspectives.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by andrepd on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @01:56PM (#21195037)

Yes, watching the news these past few years we can totally see that cops get convicted for "hate crime" every single day.

They shoot innocent, unarmed men to death as a matter of course, and get off with a few months' suspension, but somehow you think you can charge a cop for a "hate crime" for getting pulled over (conveniently concluding then that it's the black folk who are "privileged").

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by Konnstann on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @02:37PM (#21195530)

No my point was that wealth supersedes race in police interactions. Look at the Jussie Smollett case, you can definitely stir up some anti-police sentiment if you're rich enough. The conclusion isn't that black folk are privileged, it's that if you are well-off and look the part, race will play a much lower role when you get pulled over.

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by mikestew on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @05:14PM (#21197347)

Not parent, but thanks for the reply. In response to my own sibling comment I say, "hmm, I apparently was not hearing you right."

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Re:'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @10:10AM (#21192481)

Yes, but there's still a pretty hard distinction between material privileges and actual constitutional rights. For instance, we don't criticize racialized police brutality because it's some maldistribution of police attention, but because it violates rights that are supposed to be inviolate.

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