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Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by organsnyder on Monday October 07, 2019 @02:39PM (#21184428)
Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported...

I'd probably have made the same decision as you (I'm fortunate to have a safety net), but many people don't have that luxury.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by reaperducer on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:36PM (#21185069)
Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported...

I believe the applicable phrase here is "courage of your convictions."

I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued.

A few years ago I stood up to a middle manager over privacy issues in a feature request. It went far enough to get HR and the legal department involved. It took half a year, but I won.

Bully managers count on people being afraid to lose their jobs. If more people stood up to them, they'd be afraid to make stupid requests in the first place.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by munchbunny on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:13PM (#21185452)
Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued.

Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? Having a safety net generally means that your situation might be tough but you're okay if you quit/lose your job.

Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". The definition has gray area (such as if your family in your birth country is rich), but as a rule of thumb if deportation is the likely outcome, then you don't have a safety net.

IF you are an immigrant family, this is a trolley problem. Regardless of the courage of your convictions, you are making a choice for not just yourself, but your spouse and kids. It's not purely your own choice.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by reaperducer on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:24PM (#21185556)
Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings?

I had neither. I took menial temp jobs and short-term manual labor jobs for a while until I could get something full-time in my field. Took about six months the first time, and nine months the second time.

Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net".

Is it? It's not like if you lose your job when you're on an H1B they send you to the suicide booth. You just end up back in your old country, but with a much better resume. Yes, life is harder than it was in the United States, but you start again.

That's what people do — they get back up when they're knocked down. I've done it four times now. Losing an H1B is not the end of someone's life.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by munchbunny on Monday October 07, 2019 @06:21PM (#21186607)
Is it? It's not like if you lose your job when you're on an H1B they send you to the suicide booth. You just end up back in your old country, but with a much better resume. Yes, life is harder than it was in the United States, but you start again.

Well, depends on what you're going back to. Say it's China, and you morally disagree with a lot more of the Chinese tech industry's politics than you do the US's. Is it worth taking the one particular stand here to lose the long game?

Obviously I'm specifically crafting counterexamples, but the point I'm trying to get across is that it's not purely a matter of courage of conviction.

In your case, good for you - you went further than most would. I would not have held that particular line. If that was the choice I would have to make, I would start to look for a new job at that moment, not to quit.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by mav3rick on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:57PM (#21185862)
Reeking of privilege here. "I got born in a developed country, life goes on ".
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by joosters on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:44PM (#21185769)
So you were lucky. Not everyone will have the same luck.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by DangitBobby on Monday October 07, 2019 @05:03PM (#21185911)
Many people talk big game about morals and ethics, but when the chips are down, they will happily forget all that if they have to sacrifice even the smallest amount of comfort. Good for you. Seriously.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by damnyou on Monday October 07, 2019 @06:12PM (#21186532)
It is not obviously better to value ethics over family and community. I certainly wouldn't blame someone for putting their family's wellbeing (deportation can be traumatic) over quitting a place that's doing unethical things.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by damnyou on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:46PM (#21185784)
You might be a gay immigrant from a country that oppresses gay people. You might have a partner here, or friends, or family, or community.

Bring forced to move to a different community is always bad. The fact that states often force you to do it is a big reason I am an anarchist.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Jweb_Guru on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:01PM (#21185327)
You say you didn't have "a safety net." What was your actual situation? For example, were you liable to be deported if you quit your job?
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Macuyiko on Monday October 07, 2019 @02:45PM (#21184499)
I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by forkerenok on Monday October 07, 2019 @02:50PM (#21184541)
Perhaps that manager had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported...

But seriously, moral is the thing that applies not only when it's convenient.

Disclaimer: I have no moral right to preach this.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Zenst on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:09PM (#21184744)
Maybe that the engineer or the manager (or both) are not that old and still paying of their student loans and other debt babies.

Though I'd go with the ability to add or remove emojis or restrict them was a facility engineered for more moral motives and was a point and click level of solution that those with access could do such a change with ease.

Or

It was upper management...

Either way - I do not expect an announcement from Apple saying "Zach in engineering did it, his bad, sorry for that", or indeed anything at all as that would fuel this and unless it is still trending as an issue after a few weeks, then they might. But in general, such things PR wise, blow over and Apple like most have found that not fueling it with any response unless it is exactly what the populus want to hear, it is best to say nothing. At least, that is how many such comparable matters play out with such large corporations throughout history, though they have improved.

EDIT[ s/hold/old/ ]

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by root_axis on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:09PM (#21184748)
We should still blame the engineer, but they shouldn't shoulder the majority of the blame.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by behnamoh on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:23PM (#21184922)
Maybe if all engineers quit with the first immoral request by the management, it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them. We only see what has happened, not what has not happened. What if the iOS engineers do in fact have moral values and have declined some of the management's more immoral requests many times, but this particular request seemed the lesser of two devils? Maybe those engineers don't quit exactly because they want to hinder such actions by the management.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by csallen on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:34PM (#21185037)
Thanks for making an insightful comment that acknowledges the complexities of the world and tries to take into account the information, events, and possibilities that we don't see. That's quite rare. It's more much common to assume that everything we know about the situation is sufficient to pass judgment.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by root_axis on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:58PM (#21185277)
> it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them

All the more reason why they (the replacement) should be blamed. Obviously, those who might have refused to comply and were replaced made a moral stand and deserve commendation, not blame.

> Maybe those engineers don't quit exactly because they want to hinder such actions by the management.

Perhaps. There are a lot of hypothetical scenarios we could construct that might absolve the implementor of blame but this is possible in any scenario where we're not privy to the internal process that culminates in a corporate decision.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by nostrademons on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:29PM (#21185606)
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by bryanrasmussen on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:42PM (#21185128)
well hypotheticals without a concrete example are not much use, I'm left to speculate that they told the engineer either we shoot and eat this baby, or you hide the flag and they heroically hid the flag.

But until I get a confirmation on this unselfish act I'm gonna go with probably didn't think much about it and took the next ticket on his list.

Which hey. I'm not on a high enough horse here to berate the guy, but not on a low enough horse to speculate how noble he must be in secret. (excuse the gender specific pronouns)

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by ryandrake on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:39PM (#21185091)
I’ve in past jobs occasionally objected to being assigned a task on ethical grounds. My manager never had a problem with it. There were 10 people on the team so he’d just reassign it to one of the other nine who had no problem with the task.

There is no unified code of ethics that all software developers must abide by, so getting unethical work done is just a matter of moving the work to the next developer in line.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by CharlesColeman on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:42PM (#21185743)
> I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.

If we blame anyone, it should be the CEOs, board members, and large shareholders.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by onetimemanytime on Monday October 07, 2019 @05:07PM (#21185947)
Not "managers" but the AAPL board. China will ban all iPhone sales in a heartbeat, sending the stock xx% down. Go ahead and keep the Taiwan flag there then...
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Sir_Cmpwn on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:44PM (#21185148)
I put the blame on both. We have a responsibility to exercise ethical discretion in our work, and we have the power to do so. If you get fired for refusing to remove the Taiwanese flag from iOS, then take to your blog, set a fire under Apple's ass, and wait for the interview offers to roll in.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by senderista on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:20PM (#21185517)
Isn’t it likely that would be an NDA violation?
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Sir_Cmpwn on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:22PM (#21185540)
Maybe, but for my part I'd break it in a heartbeat and let them sue me. Perhaps the right answer is a tech workers union.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by hutzlibu on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:44PM (#21185759)
Sadly I believe that the job offers will be limited as moat companies like obidient employers more, than independent ones who cause discomfort. You would have to have good skills to compensate. (or the willingness to move to taiwan)
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:09PM (#21185405)
Doesn't Apple employ software engineers in China?

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=china-CHNC&page...

Is it reasonable to believe Apple might have signed that task to a team sympathetic to the One-China policy, or just generally someone who was happy to do it?

Why do people think there was some sort of circumstance that caused the engineer to compromise on their morals?

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by icelancer on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:40PM (#21185104)
It is the willingness to pay a price that separates standing for bedrock principles from cheap virtue signalling.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by reddog on Monday October 07, 2019 @04:13PM (#21185448)
Christopher Buckley called this 'the yuppie Nuremberg defense'.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by daveslash on Monday October 07, 2019 @05:04PM (#21185917)
Or maybe the Engineer could have been in mainland China? The parent comments assert that an engineer would only do this if they have no morals or are under some pressure -- but it's possible that they might actually agree with this. Edit: As an engineer, I would protest being assigned this work.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by layoutIfNeeded on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:52PM (#21185234)
A married man with a family will do anything for money.

Talleyrand

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by colechristensen on Monday October 07, 2019 @02:52PM (#21184563)
With the amount that engineers get paid in the bay area it's ridiculous that having a safety net isn't trivially easy. The real estate situation here (and everywhere) is ridiculous - it isn't right that the price of housing seems everywhere to be a little bit too much for anybody to afford.
Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Zenst on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:10PM (#21184766)
Debt, student debt, mortgage debt, cost of living in such a high paying area do tend to be much more expensive - fiscal relativity if you like.

So not as clear cut that they can all just pack up and go walkabout.

Re:Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong by Gibbon1 on Monday October 07, 2019 @03:42PM (#21185126)
About 8 years ago at breakfast I told my GF I had a book idea. I'd make millions on it!

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