News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by huntermeyer on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:05PM (#21142878)
> For instance, consider a scenario in which law enforcement has a video footage of a robbery. They suspect that the robber is hiding inside a house. Can a pair of WiFi transceivers outside the house determine if the person inside the house is the same as the one in the robbery video? Questions such as this have motivated this new technology.

Goodbye 4th Amendment.

Would be cool if these intelligent folks but their efforts towards improving privacy.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by dahart on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:39PM (#21143042)
I don’t see any reason the existence of spy tech would damage the 4th amendment. We already have spy tech (way better spy tech than this, btw), and the amendment still works to prevent (at least some) unreasonable search & seizure.

This is a neat application of WiFi signals, but the accuracy is nowhere near good enough for this to reliably ID random people.

I’m way more worried about online corporate surveillance that actually can ID me reliably with 100% accuracy and get a lot more info about me besides where I am, than I am of government surveillance of my walking gait through walls.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by mlyle on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:49AM (#21143824)
Not to mention the posited scenario has nothing to do with the 4th amendment. If you reasonably believe a suspect is hiding in a house such that surveillance is a decent approach, you could go kick down the door. Choosing to verify first with wifi is a gentler approach.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:57PM (#21143127)
FLIR is considered a search under the 4th amendment, and requires a warrant; it'd stand to reason this would face similar scrutiny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by tyingq on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:28PM (#21143311)
"Since the police did not have a warrant when they used the device, which was not commonly available to the public, the search was presumptively unreasonable"

As tech marches on, "not commonly available to the public" becomes a smaller space.

Separately, I'd hazard a guess that they still use FLIR in an indiscriminate way, and just conjure up a little parallel construction when needed.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by rkagerer on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:22AM (#21143677)
If I'm not mistaken the court crafted their opinion to apply "at least" to technology "not in general public use", and was somewhat ambiguous as to more common devices.

I share your concern for what will become of privacy as exotic new surveillance techniques become widespread. The legal treatment of expectation of privacy seems tied to whatever is the societal norm of the age, and that mark has shifted dramatically in my lifetime.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by cma on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:18AM (#21144514)
What if a neighbor uses it unprompted instead of the police?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by kspacewalk2 on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:45PM (#21143068)
I don't get this attitude. If something is technologically/scientifically feasible, it will get invented, and it will get perfected and it will get used. Military drones, human cloning, designer babies, you name it. Taking the high road just means someone else will do it instead.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by ssss11 on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:49PM (#21143457)
That mentality is a race to the bottom which ends in no humanity
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by BurningFrog on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:14AM (#21143626)
To me, that's the mentality of facing truth, even if it's uncomfortable.

That's not a threat to humanity.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by ikeyany on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:10AM (#21143923)
All of the countries that did not invest heavily in their militaries no longer exist.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:17AM (#21143957)
Iceland is a figment of my imagination?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by sroussey on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:18AM (#21144236)
And Costa Rica?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by hobofan on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:02AM (#21144439)
And most individual countries in Europe?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by chronic71819 on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:52AM (#21144932)
> Iceland is a figment of my imagination?

> And Costa Rica?

> And most individual countries in Europe?

All of these countries, for practical purposes, do not exist.

They do not have influence on the world stage. They may as well be China, considering how easy these countries will bend to Chinese money.

So either you develop the surveillance tech, or you must look the other way when China develops it. If you disagree, your economy will be ruined.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by bsenftner on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:55PM (#21143501)
No. It is a race to develop both sides, the detection and the attack against that detection. The "other side" will develop similar on their side, and the competition is what advances everyone. Practically every thing technological we have is due to war/defense research.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by asxd on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:04AM (#21144722)
While I see your point, I have a hard time imagining designer babies will be socially acceptable in the west within this lifetime. I think it’s reasonable to believe the usage and research of technology is bounded by societal norms to a significant extent. When it comes to adversarial technology however—and designer babies are arguably not in that group—I can agree with that it’s imperative to understand the tech so that it can be defended against.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by Erlich_Bachman on Thursday October 03, 2019 @05:44AM (#21145192)
I know that empirically, in terms of what society thinks, you are probably correct, but what is wrong with designer babies? Isn't it the only way we can continue the further improving and developing of the species (instead of making it worse by artifically keeping people with genetic diseases alive and reproducing), at the same time also avoiding the more horrendous parts of natural evolution and selection like genocide, race wars or idiocracy-styled trends of selecting by the dumb metric of sheer number of kids?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by hobofan on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:06AM (#21144459)
> Taking the high road just means someone else will do it instead.

Someone will do it, but someone will also do the counter-thing to it. In this example someone might research how to prevent people from being identified through walls, and I would hope that those people are the more skilled ones.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by jonathankoren on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:08AM (#21144189)
True, maybe someone will make these things, but that doesn’t mean one has to approve of it, nor be the one that builds it.

Bad things still happen even they’re outlawed, but that doesn’t mean we just throw up our hands and proclaim that there’s nothing anyone can do about anything, and dismantle the entire legal system.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by atoav on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:22AM (#21143980)
Same could be argued about much worse ideas, ideas where people historically shied away and tried to control at least a bit of the context in which these ideas fell.

The whole developement of nuclear weapons is a story of the when, of the how fast and of the should I and would have looked certainly different if it’s protagonists all had based their decisions on the ethical rationalisation you proposed here. Who knows, maybe even the Germans would have gotten nuclear weapons?

The hard question obviously is: where do you draw the border? If you invented the paperclip and it was beeing used in the holocaust’s bureaucracy blaming you would be a bit far fetched. If you invented the gas showers of the KZs whose only purpose it was to mass-kill prisoners, not feeling ethically responsible would be totally mad. In between there you have got Werner von Braun with his V2 rocket, which isn’t exactly easy to judge. He enabled space travel, yet the bombs killed many british civilians quasi randomly and out of the blue and the number of slave workers killed during construction was even higher than the number the rocket killed.

Inbetween these three examples there are infinite shades of ethical dilemma while your argument paints this as a binary question about whether something could or should exist or not — and if the answer to the could is True, who cares about the answer to the should, right?

I propose something else. If you value your own intellect you should abstain from ideas that could be, but shouldn’t and rather attack things that could be and should be or maybe even things that should be, but couldn’t by the thinking of today.

We engineers, scientists, thinkers and artists are giving birth to things that become reality, but it is our indivisual decision if we do:

You will rarely find a writer telling you he had to write that dehumanizing dangerous text, because if he wouldn’t have done it somebody else would have. We can stray farther from this even and paint an example where a old lady collapses at a bus stop. Now you could have someone robbing her as she lays there (”If I wouldn’t have done it someone else would’ve”). Or you could have somebody going for first aid and calling the ambulance (”If I wouldn’t have done it someone else would’ve”).

The statement “someone else would’ve done it” is not really a ethical reason to do anything. The question you should ask yourself is: in what kind of society do I want to live and do my actions contribute to it and if so at what cost? What if everybody acted like I did?

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by dpq on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:00AM (#21144151)
> The question you should ask yourself is: in what kind of society do I want to live and do my actions contribute to it and if so at what cost? What if everybody acted like I did?

But then of course this is the wrong question to ask. This is nothing more but a complicated version of a multi-party, repeated Prisoner's Dilemma problem. Except that you don't know your negative payoff when an opponent chooses to defect, but it may well be minus infinity (you get holocausted or nuked into paleolith). And then defection by any single party gets you the negative payoff. So if you only ask the question you suggest and ignore the rest of the options, you are doomed.

I'm afraid that the world's politicians (most of them at least) are completely sane, and all this "race to the bottom" stuff going on is just the result of the game theory & life being what it is.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by atoav on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:31AM (#21144309)
This is true if you think in an egoistical game theory mode, where all the other can be is an enemy, where only one party can win and where the idea that you win automatically when the other loses is accepted. In reality both can win or both can lose as well (and they do so regularily). So if both sides can predict a race to the bottom wouldn’t the better thing be an approach that tries to disolve the binary situation (which is btw a very american thing in itself because political compromise is far more common in nations without two-party systems).

I think context is key, and we shouldn’t theorize conflicts in everyday life in the same way as all out nuclear war or other existential situations. Maybe that is just the naive idea of a guy who benefits from the wealth and peace produced from a Europe which for the first time in centuries doean’t feel the need to kill each other for (in hindsight) more or less meaningless reasons.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by RIMR on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:12PM (#21143211)
I don't get THIS attitude. None of those things are ethically justified via your "somebody's gonna go it anyway" philosophy.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by echelon on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:26PM (#21143297)
> Military drones, human cloning, designer babies,

Only one of these is objectionable.

The other two ought to be pursued so we can further advance the human race and improve the quality of everyone's lives. They're totally justified.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by p1esk on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:42PM (#21143410)
Which one? Honest question.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by welly on Thursday October 03, 2019 @07:37AM (#21145817)
I'm putting my bets on military drones.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by bilbo0s on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:42PM (#21143412)
Which one is objectionable?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by fouc on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:35PM (#21143364)
designer babies are objectionable?
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by onion2k on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:59AM (#21144148)
In the sense that it would give the wealthy an unreasonable advantage to stay wealthy forever and mean an end to social mobility, which would in turn lead to a feudal social class system, yes.

The thing is though, money does that already if your society doesn't have strong inheritance taxation, so I'm not sure it's really such a problem.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by kfrzcode on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:24AM (#21143686)
This is a very slippery slope
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by mlevental on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:44PM (#21143425)
>Would be cool if these intelligent folks but their efforts towards improving privacy

plenty of intelligent folks working on this for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by mosselman on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:26AM (#21145409)
Would still be cool though.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by tomc1985 on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:04PM (#21143169)
> Would be cool if these intelligent folks but their efforts towards improving privacy.

There's way more money in bootlicking

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by gojomo on Thursday October 03, 2019 @12:21PM (#21148731)
You kinda have to develop the privacy-invasive technology to even know what to be defending against – especially since some of those pursuing privacy-invasive tech will be doing so in secret.

So publicly sharing this research is an effort towards improving privacy, by letting other researchers & the public know what the risks are.

Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:08PM (#21143190)
I’m not covered by the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution anyway.
Re:Identifying a person through walls from video footage, us... by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday October 03, 2019 @08:42AM (#21146284)
The vast majority of the human race isn't, I'm not sure why you were downvoted for pointing this out.