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Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by conk on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:33PM (#21108361)
It has less to do with ac vs dc and more to do with the voltage and distance from source to load. If you wanted a dc bus inside a house you would need to have voltages in the same range as ac power 120/240V in North America. At this point you have the same challenges of how do you reduce the voltage to something low and easy to work with for an end device like a light bulb or cell phone. Stepping down voltage is easy to do with AC power but difficult for DC which is why I don’t think it will ever be practical.
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by convolvatron on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:39PM (#21108407)
48v dc bus and buck converters work just fine. generally power supplies that work off AC rectify and go through the same business - except they need larger inductors to sort out the zero crossing.

i think the difference you're looking for is in volume of copper.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by jws on Sunday September 29, 2019 @02:43PM (#21108837)
Maybe we should instead invent a domestic 3 phase distribution system. No more zero crossings requiring energy storage, just flat constant power. It would require a new, small four conductor plug to be designed. Total volume of copper would be a less for the same available power, since the three wires deliver twice the power as two single phase wires for the same conductor size. There would be more insulation involved so the wiring might grow or might shrink if outlets were held to 1500watts.

The big savings would be in longer lived electronic devices. A sizable portion of digital electronics ultimately fail because the capacitors in their power supplies exceed their designed lifetime. Electrolytic capacitors (ticking time bombs) are cheap and compact for the capacity so they are used for the energy storage required in single phase systems, but if designing a three phase power supply less storage is required and maybe manufacturers wouldn't have to optimize the smaller, capacitors with electrolytics. I've had a 4k TV and a rather expensive musical instrument amp fail for capacitors this year, about $3000 of gear there. Looking back further there are a couple of professional powered sound reinforcement speakers (twice), an iMac G5 (three times). It's probably safe to say over the decades I've had $10k of electronics fail prematurely from electrolytic capacitor failure. These are all items which were not obsolete or worn out. Scale that up from one person to worldwide and it's easily in the hundreds of billions (10⁹) of dollars which could be saved.

The problem is you can't get there from where we are. No one wants to drag more wires to residential houses, no one wants to shell out >$1k for a household phase converter and then rewire their house. You won't convince people to add three phase to a new house because it might be the future. And you won't convince the semiconductor houses to make a line of three phase power supply controller chips just because, well, maybe someone might use it.

We're probably trapped at a suboptimal local maximum.

Edit: In response to atoav's comment I found IEC 60309 and its extra low voltage variant which is a 42mm (1 2.3") 3 phase plug and connector in two compatible sizes good for 1.3kW and 2.6kW. Also, that Germans and Swedes did the engineering first and then built an electrical system and they get 480V 3 phase at 16A to their cooktops and stoves through a plug for a whopping 13kW!

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by atoav on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:12PM (#21109042)
I am not exactly sure what you imagine, but I (in Germany) have two 3 phase outlets (3x 16A @230V) in my flat and this is very common here. We use it for cook tops and ovens in the kitchen typically, and it makes the difference between 15 mins for boiling water (old single phase cook top) and (on my induction cook top) 1 min.

Edit: and as an aside, why we probably don't do that everywhere: it makes for bigger plugs, and keeping safety standards can be a bit more expensive and space intensive with the potential 400V between phases.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by makomk on Sunday September 29, 2019 @08:05PM (#21110528)
I think Germany is one of the few countries which bothers to wire up three phase power to ordinary houses, not sure why.
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by ahje on Monday September 30, 2019 @02:23AM (#21112244)
It's quite common in the Nordic countries as well.
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by jws on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:27PM (#21109136)
Well that's news to me! I'm jealous. I'll bet you can preheat an electric oven in less than 20 minutes.

I see the successor to the 16A Perilex connectors you are referencing is IEC 60309 which has an "extra low voltage" version with a smaller, 42mm diameter (1 2/3") plug good for 16A or 32A. 16A devices will fit in a 32A socket, but not the other way around. So that seems to be a 1.3kW and 2.6kW solution. Sign me up!

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:55PM (#21109286)
"So that seems to be a 1.3kW and 2.6kW solution"

Germany is 230v so that would be more like 3kw and 6kw.

I'm in the UK (also 230v) and a standard outlet can do 3kw, I think fuseboard fuses are 32amp so I don't know if 6kw is a practical upper bound though (edit: On 2nd thoughts I'm not even sure this is relevant to 3 phase).

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by fyfy18 on Monday September 30, 2019 @12:56AM (#21111891)
Pedantic: Standard outlets are 16A in mainland Europe, so 3.7kW.

Modern single ovens can also be connected to a standard single phase outlet rather than a dedicated circuit. In my kitchen the induction cooktop is on a 16A three phase circuit, and all the other outlets (fridge/freezer, oven, dishwasher and appliances) are on a 16A single phase circuit.

5:11 from 20°C to 220°C

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:12AM (#21112474)
Wouldn't pedantic be 3.68kw?

I've never actually come across anything higher than 3kw, also a 16amp fuse isnt that precise, you could probably get up to 20 amps without it failing. The hotter you run it the quicker it fails though, so if you're regularly running 3.7kw through a 16 amp fuse, you may well find it failing, not through an underlying fault of anything plugged in to it.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by xxs on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:59AM (#21112143)
>I think fuseboard fuses are 32amp

Most cables are 16A, so the outlets are 16A as well. Also UK uses 240V, not 230V. 32A circuit breakers would make the cables burn when overloaded.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:01AM (#21112420)
Flex cables might be 16amp, individual sockets are 16 amp though, so if you have more than one of those on a ring main...

"Use a 30amp fuse or 32amp MCB for larger radial circuits, ring circuits up to 100m, cookers and electric showers up to 7200W"

http://simplifydiy.com/electrical/basic-electrics/fuses

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by xxs on Monday September 30, 2019 @09:16AM (#21115008)
normal fuses (in the fusebox) still have to be 16A (B or C class), the main fuse can be anything 32-50A or even tri-phase 50A.

>ring circuits up to 100m, cookers and electric showers up to 7200W

Normally those tend to be 3phases.

Of course it's possible to get over 16A on a single phase and a circuit breaker but that's quite a non-standard option. The issue is that if the fuse/circuit breaker is rated for 32A in a standard application (i.e. an outlet) the cables are likely to burn 1st.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Monday September 30, 2019 @11:44AM (#21116582)
I think we might be getting our wires crossed :)

I'm talking about the UK here, which I understood to be similar to the rest of Europe(?).

That's a UK website and 3 phase isn't common here. I've just double checked my fuse box, and I have a 32 amp fuse for my socket ring main.

Don't forget for a ring main the current is spread over 2 wires, so if theres 32amps power draw, theres only 16amp on each side of the ring.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by KaiserPro on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:38PM (#21109196)
UK here:

We don't have three phase (well its not common) but we can heat an oven up to 220c(420f) in 7 minutes. I think its a 3kw oven. its on a 32 amp (isolated) breaker.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @04:03PM (#21109320)
I've never ever seen it in the UK, but I did live in a house with a flat on a separate meter, that as it turned out was on a separate phase. I only discovered this because there was a fault on the line for only one phase, and only after checking and changing every fuse (wire), and unplugging every electrical item. Grr.
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by atoav on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:48PM (#21109255)
Had something to toast so I tested mine too (3x 16A @230V). Took 4:52 to heat up to 220°C
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by alexdumitru on Sunday September 29, 2019 @05:55PM (#21109849)
I'm in Romania and it heats to 180C in about 3 and a half minutes.
Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by gizmo686 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:07PM (#21109008)
Do we need to invent anything? My understanding is that most of the grid in the US operates on 3 phase, and some buildings (including residential) already have a 3 phase supply to operate AC and industrial applications.

All we are missing is for it to be standard to wire the 3 phase distribution throughout buildings to every outlet (preferably in a backwards compatible manner; in theory converting 3-phase to single phase is just a matter of ignoring a wire. I would assume that a) the grid can handle people doing this and b) doing this with out current 3-phase standard would result in our current single phase standard,

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by Scoundreller on Monday September 30, 2019 @10:44AM (#21115881)
I hate those 3 phase residential buildings, because they usually deliver 208V to ovens and dryers instead of 240V.

While the appliances are probably approved fo 208V, I doubt they’re drawing more peak current to make up for it.

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by novok on Sunday September 29, 2019 @05:34PM (#21109750)
Wouldn't it be easier to mandate separated replaceable power supplies vs changing the electricity standard in buildings world wide?

Or make power supplies some sort of standard, so you can use your own expensive capacitor power supply instead? Or just shop for things that have separated power supplies?

Re:Pre-built solar homes could make renewable energy almost ... by benj111 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:37PM (#21109194)
Dc to dc voltage voltage conversion is easy kind of, you simply need to convert it to AC and back.

So as its going to become AC at some point anyway, why not use the existing wiring.