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Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ralusek on Saturday September 28, 2019 @02:50AM (#21098870)
I'll bring up the point I always bring up regarding sex work: why are so many people focused on whether or not this actually produces better results for people? Legislation, by and large and particularly in the United States, is driven first and foremost by principle, rather than utilitarian objectives.

Even if legal prostitution led to higher crime, more violence, death and disease (none of which is true, of course), the issue is still fundamentally one of principle. Why does the state have a role to play in a transaction between two consenting adults? The only sensible argument would be that the state has a role only insofar as consent is in question, and therefore maybe assists in some capacity in terms of ensuring consent. Beyond that, we simply should not be legislating in search of outcomes.

In much the same way that alcohol prohibition might lead to lower rates of violence, rape, obesity, cardiovascular disease, unemployment, unwanted pregnancy, etc...we oppose prohibition from a principled position. Just as you might argue that putting a security camera in every room in every house would vastly remove unresolved criminality, false imprisonment, domestic violence, etc...we oppose such an invasion of privacy from a principled position.

It really doesn't matter how sex work is actually affected by the legality of it, the state simply has no right to interfere in a consensual transaction which does not produce negative third party externalities, period.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by llamaz on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:32AM (#21098997)
Consider the example of a highway robber that holds you up at gunpoint and asks for your wallet on the threat of death. In this situation there is typically consent by the victim in handing over her wallet to the perpetrator - after all he has the _free will_ not to hand over his wallet.

In the same way, you have the _free will_ not to work, but the consequences of not working are ending up on the streets. As a special case of this, a prostitute has the free will not to work, on the threat of ending up on the streets. The only difference between a generic worker and a prostitute is that it is the human reproductive act itself that is being commodified.

I guess that the question of whether prostitution is exploitative or not, and whether generic work is exploitative or not, depends on what _alternative_ choices are available: Does society guarantee that you will not end up on the streets i.e. (1) is there a scarcity in the basic human needs of society, viz. housing, jobs, the recognition in law of that someone is a citizen etc. (2) does society provide these basic needs to all its members.

From this framework it's possibly to argue that _in principle_ prostitution is exploitative. It is no more exploitative than any other form of work, but perhaps has a tendency to attract the most vulnerable in society who do not have a safety net to fall back on. So I don't see anything especially exploitative about a middle class woman becoming a stripper to get through college. But not everyone is middle class.

What's undeniable _in practice_, is that legal prostitution leads to less criminal behaviour and exploitation. Hopefully we can work to change the conditions that make prostitution exploitative as opposed to an expression of an individuals creativity.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by RomanBob on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:58AM (#21099473)
This is an absolute butchering of free will.

A person being robbed at gun point is being coerced. He is having a choice forced upon him by another person. Society, being composed of individuals all of whom do not want to be coerced has an interest in preventing coercion.

This is not true of having to work. The biological necessity of your body requiring food is not forced onto you by anybody. So nobody can be held responsible for it.

A prostitute being given the option to sell her body for money actually makes her life better, because depriving her of having to choose does not improve her life, while depriving a man of having to choose between being shot and giving up his wallet improves his life greatly.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by someguyorother on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:54AM (#21099849)
A better analogy might be:

Suppose you wander into the desert and get lost. Suppose you're on the verge of dying from thirst when another person shows up. He says "I'll take you back to civilization, but only if you agree to be my slave forever".

You're not any worse off than if the slaver didn't exist, because you can always choose to reject the slaver's offer. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Yet I think that most people would consider that a very unconvincing argument for permitting slavery: that a would-be slaver would simply not show up if slavery were illegal.

Arguing in favor of free will, you could say that all other things being the same, a world where you get lost in the desert and the slaver shows up is no worse than one where you get lost in the desert and nobody shows up.

Arguments in favor of control thus rely on all else not being the same, that making something illegal changes the wider society, not just any single individual's ability to do that thing.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kaitai on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:11AM (#21099925)
If you have the idea of the "independent entrepreneur", that adult woman who is proud to use sex as a creative expression, it's true that she's making her life better. If it's a scared 15-year-old whose mom kicked her out because boyfriend was starting to make comments about her ass, and she has no idea where to go or what to do but a guy say she can have a place to sleep if she has sex with him (and then he starts pimping her out to his friends), that's a very different situation. Or if you're an LGBT teen and you're kicked out by your parents for being gay and fall into a similar situation.

The article is pretty nuanced.

"So I pretended. I pretended all of it was a kind of adventure. That what I gained from it was more than rent. I dismissed how much that rent meant to me. I pretended that I was not so poor, that I had not grown up poor. That I had not cried out of fear of not knowing where the money would come from next. That I did not steal food from every restaurant I ever worked in. That I never ate the food people left on their plates."

The whole economic system we're in is coercive to many.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by MuffinFlavored on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:18AM (#21100133)
> A prostitute being given the option to sell her body for money actually makes her life better

It brings her money, no doubt. Does it also bring emotional/mental trauma? What if it was your job to exchange your body for money at a high rate daily/weekly/monthly? Would you be ok with your daughter being a sex worker? What about your wife or your mother?

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by factsaresacred on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:38AM (#21100214)
> Does it also bring emotional/mental trauma?

Many jobs come with emotional trauma. Try working 14 hour shifts gluing heads on dolls in some provincial Chinese city. Or swimming through sewers to undo blockages in a Haiti slum.

The truth is that many sex workers look at the alternatives and see sex work as the easier option. And by far the most lucrative.

In fact, having spent time in a part of the world free from the residue of Christian morality, I know many women who mock females who 'give it up for free' as foolish.

They were baffled that sex could come without an exchange of something of value.

It's an entirely different perspective.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by MuffinFlavored on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:50AM (#21100260)
> Many jobs come with emotional trauma. Try working 14 hour shifts gluing heads on dolls in some provincial Chinese city. Or swimming through sewers to undo blockages in a Haiti slum.

While a factory worker gluing heads on dolls might compare themselves to a successful CEO and feel a very low sense of self worth, I'm not entirely convinced that having sex with strangers in exchange for money wouldn't bring on an any different set of self worth problems.

> I know many women who mock females who 'give it up for free' as foolish.

I do agree that most women see performing sexual acts on a man as an exchange, especially in power. In their eyes, as a man, you are fortunate if this woman "decides" to let you have sex with her.

As a sex worker in my eyes, you are getting rid of your power/right to choose who you want to have sex with/when because it is linked to "I need to pay my rent".

I believe a sex worker's self-worth and mental trauma take on new levels as soon as a sex worker has sex with somebody they wouldn't have had sex with in a typical romantic/casual hookup situation.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by malms on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:30AM (#21100465)
You can also be coerced by the lack if money
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by goatinaboat on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:11AM (#21099506)
The only difference between a generic worker and a prostitute is that it is the human reproductive act itself that is being commodified.

Why is that particular act singled out? Humans need to do lots of things both to ensure individual survival and the survival of the species. Why is "the human reproductive act" morally different from, say, paying someone money to cook food for you? Why is genuinely immoral work (such as advertising) given a free pass?

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kaitai on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:02AM (#21099888)
Part of it, historically, is the "reproductive" part. Cooking food for you doesn't result in a pregnancy and a kid who then grows up with a mom who was by definition in the position to consider sex work the best choice. And in fact if you're the child of an exploited sex worker (as opposed to the independent entrepreneur), you are a child in high danger of being exploited yourself, because exploiting you can be quite lucrative.

Now, we could help children by helping people and providing social services -- but it's easier to just make prostitution illegal.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by sershe on Sunday September 29, 2019 @10:43AM (#21107285)
What if I pay a security guard (or a soldier for the army for that matter) with an implicit non-trivial risk of being killed by an intruder he's there to repel? That seems like an even more significant "act" that will also affect their children, as well as a lot of others potentially. Not speaking of the gravity of the act itself for the person being paid. Should that also be illegal?
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by testis321 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:24AM (#21100158)
I agree with this. A 'happy ending massage' worker "has to" give a 'happy ending' to a customer, and a vet "has to" shove his hand elbow deep up a cows orifice. Somehow we treat the first ones as victims/immorals and the second ones as doing noble work.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by malms on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:37AM (#21099997)
Its not singled out. There are labor laws in general that prevent possibly consenting people to work more (at least in europe)
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by Nitramp on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:47AM (#21101008)
> What's undeniable _in practice_, is that legal prostitution leads to less criminal behaviour and exploitation.

Uh, that's totally deniable.

Ten years ago, Germany legalized prostitution in an attempt to reduce crime and improve sex workers rights, standing, etc. Curiously at the same time, Sweden made prostitution illegal (incl. soliciting), for the exact same reasons.

Ten years later, the outcome is pretty clear. Germany is seeing exploitation and trafficking on a much larger scale, mostly because the criminals can more easily hide behind a screen of legality. Sweden sees less trafficking and exploitation.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kelnos on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:58PM (#21103948)
Just declaring something legal or illegal is not sufficient to solve any kind of societal issue. The right laws need to be in place to be effective.

I have no idea what Germany did, but if all they did was one day say "hey, it's legal to be a sex worker now, go nuts!" ... then the outcome they got is not surprising at all. Even if they did more than that, it's a complex issue, and you need a comprehensive legal framework in place in order to ensure that exploited sex workers have a path to justice.

If the response from exploiters is "well, sex work is legal", and the law buys that and looks the other way, then the law was not made particularly well.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ralusek on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:45PM (#21101354)
I would see Germany as a failure of the state to take an active role in ensuring consent.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by mensetmanusman on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:03PM (#21104514)
They tried as hard as a strong state can try.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by MuffinFlavored on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:17AM (#21100121)
> depends on what _alternative_ choices are available

Doesn't that put a negative stigma around sex work? It makes it sound like sex workers should/would only get into sex work if they had no other options available.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ohithereyou on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:26AM (#21100166)
Anecdata here, but I knew a couple of sex workers (one was a stripper, one was an escort) at university. Both of them looked at their options - food service worker, work/study job in the bookstore, and retail employee at the local big box stores and decided that the level of compensation, ability to set one's own hours, ability to choose ones own clients, and relative level of risk was such that being a sex worker was more remunerative and gratifying.

They had other options. They chose sex work knowing the risks, knowing they could quit if they wanted to, and knowing their alternatives.

I'm aware that not every sex worker enters sex work that way, but it's equally wrong to say that all sex workers do sex work because they have no other options.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by aurea on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:06AM (#21098915)
> Why does the state have a role to play in a transaction between two consenting adults?

What are you advocating here? There are many transactions in which modern states interfere that are between consenting adults. In countries with minimal wage you could consent to being paid below it, but it would remain illegal. You can consent to being scammed in a transaction, but it remains illegal. Etc. These interference are meant to protect citizens. Just because the transaction would involve a sexual exchange doesn’t mean it’s any different.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by yardstick on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:20AM (#21098957)
I believe the difference is in both of your examples, the “victim” wouldn’t be committing a crime. Imagine if employees were jailed for accepting sub minimum wage, rather than just the employer.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by petra on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:43AM (#21099028)
That's just an historical artifact, and in some countries it's changing - now the clients get arrested instead of sex workers.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chrischen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:46AM (#21099037)
What are they being protected from? Immorality?

A lot of the dangers to sex workers is because of these protections forcing them to go underground and work with shady exploitative dealers and trafficking.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by speedplane on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:51AM (#21099053)
> A lot of the dangers to sex workers is because of these protections forcing them to go underground and work with shady exploitative dealers and trafficking.

This is the older viewpoint. The newer one is that no one would consensually agree to sex work unless they were coerced. I am not in a position to opine on that viewpoint, but if it's true, then every sex worker is being exploited regardless of any laws or regulations.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chrischen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:37AM (#21099195)
If you asked most people they'd rather be able to live without having to do their primary employment, even if they don't mind their job. I'd say that's being coerced too, and sex work just sounds like any other job by that definition.

"No one would consensually agree to [insert other menial job here] unless they were coerced."

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ownagefool on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:19AM (#21099347)
It can be a relatively well paid job too.

I can't speak for everyone or everywhere, but we definitely have documentries in the UK where women claim to do sex work because it afford them a specific lifestyle and they'd rather be there than a supermarket.

In fact, I've met such woman and the suger baby approach is fairly popular with students nowadays. They're not doing it for basic food and warth, they're doing it for chanel and gucci.

I'm not sure that moralising their ability to consent away from them is the right thing to do, but it's also probably true that cost of living rises and advertising budgets have contributed to this.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by speedplane on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:21AM (#21163785)
> If you asked most people they'd rather be able to live without having to do their primary employment, even if they don't mind their job. I'd say that's being coerced too, and sex work just sounds like any other job by that definition.

Making children work in a factory, forcing slaves to work under threat of violence, or even paying consenting adults to work grueling hours in dangerous jobs without medical recourse is bad. Paying employees to do something that's menial or boring is not.

The standards of what is acceptable or not certainly change over time, but conflating coercion and acceptable remuneration is a silly equivocation.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by mozey on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:22AM (#21099352)
Good point, but I would guess sex work is not a menial job by a long shot. Being good at it probably requires more social skills than most jobs. If you meant lacking prestige, then yes, in some peoples eyes.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by 413x on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:37AM (#21099196)
Well, same can be said about practically any job. Or do people clean and fry burgers just out of pleasure?
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kaitai on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:55AM (#21099859)
The newer newer viewpoint is to support sex workers in self-determination and labor organizing.

Edited to add that this is discussed explicitly in the article, as it mentions for instance the migrant sex worker collective Red Canary Song.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ericd on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:09AM (#21099106)
I don’t know much about this topic, but I would guess that it’s the structure of society doing most of the coercing in most cases. Which the government has at least some power to fix via improved social safety net programs.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:41AM (#21099616)
Trafficking increases rather than decreases in jurisdictions with legalized prostitution.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by mantap on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:54AM (#21099850)
How is that measured? I would think it would be rather hard to measure an activity that is illegal and clandestine.

Also 'trafficking' is a term that needs a precise definition as it means different things to different people.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Saturday September 28, 2019 @02:20PM (#21101958)
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by CompanionCuuube on Monday September 30, 2019 @01:38PM (#21117767)
Isn't an increase in the reported amount of trafficking to be expected in legalization? Legalization means that they have to worry less about being criminalized while reporting being a victim of crime.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ralusek on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:39PM (#21101317)
If it wasn't clear from my initial argument, I am very strongly opposed to the minimum wage (with an important caveat). I also stated that I believe there is a role for the state in ensuring a reasonable standard of consent. So in regards to being scammed, I think it's entirely reasonable for the state to impose hurdles to ensure that individuals transacting are made fully aware of the terms and consequences. Likewise, with minimum wage, there is a point of desperation where a person's back is up against a wall, where they have no options and can be essentially coerced into exploitative rates for their services. Here, too, I believe that there is a role for the state in ensuring that consent is practically employed. I generally favor some level of UBI, rather than minimum wage laws, in terms of giving people the level of stability necessary to start acting outside of immediate survival pressures.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by RomanBob on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:52AM (#21099451)
When you have minimum wage, the person being paid sub-minimum wage is no longer paid at all.

That is hardly an improvement.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by gjm11 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:12AM (#21100105)
The available evidence suggests that that's much less true than the obvious Economics 101 arguments would suggest. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies for some pointers.

Obviously if you raise the minimum wage high enough then it's going to hurt employment. But it seems like it has to be quite high before it hurts employment much, and in particular it seems that "everyone who would otherwise have been paid less than the minimum wage just loses their job" is a really inaccurate model.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by Jare on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:27AM (#21099766)
> Why does the state have a role to play in a transaction between two consenting adults? The only sensible argument would be that the state has a role only insofar as consent is in question

Because that is fundamentally the purpose of government. Roughly, to intrude in the decisions of individuals in order to generate a safer and more prosperous life for everyone in general. A civilization is more than a collection of individuals.

Consent can be coerced, scammed, misinterpreted, hard to prove afterwards, etc. And individual actions have consequences beyond the individual because of human traits like envy and greed. So, government attempts (should attempt) to take all these factors and many more into consideration while creating regulation and enforcement structures that work around those problems.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by wodenokoto on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:06AM (#21099311)
> why are so many people focused on whether or not this actually produces better results for people? Legislation, by and large and particularly in the United States, is driven first and foremost by principle, rather than utilitarian objectives.

Seatbelts, speed limits, health regulations, heck even labour laws are about utilitarian outcomes - generally keeping people from dying prematurely or going to the hospital.

The state generally interferes with transaction that are harmful between the two parties. You can't write whatever you want in a contract, even if it only pertains to first parties.

As for alcohol prohibition: That's not a principle stance regarding the freedom to take harmful substance. It is an exception to the prohibition of access to harmful substances. We still want something that's bad for us, so alcohol is the exception for historical reasons, but for (probably misguided) utilitarian reasons, we don't allow all sorts of drugs.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by nothrabannosir on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:14AM (#21099721)
> We still want something that's bad for us, so alcohol is the exception for historical reasons, but for (probably misguided) utilitarian reasons, we don't allow all sorts of drugs.

Our reasons for prohibition of certain drugs over others are far from utilitarian. If anything, they're anti-utilitarian. Compare the motivations for the 18th and for the 21st amendment.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by wodenokoto on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:19AM (#21099747)
That's why alcohol is an exception.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by nothrabannosir on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:00AM (#21099882)
Ok how is this sentence meant?

"(We still want something that's bad for us, so alcohol is the exception for historical reasons), but (for probably misguided utilitarian reasons, we don't allow all sorts of drugs)."

or

"We still want something that's bad for us, so (alcohol is the exception for historical reasons, but for probably misguided utilitarian reasons). We don't allow all sorts of drugs."

The former suggests we prohibit drugs for utilitarian reasons, misguided but utilitarian nonetheless, the latter seems odd by itself?

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ralusek on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:31PM (#21101283)
I think it's clear that I have an issue with seatbelt laws, and most labor laws. Speed limits are different because it imposes stark negative third party externalities. You put everyone else on the road in serious danger, none of whom consented to the imposition.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by vincent-toups on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:02AM (#21099690)
One reasonable principle is that laws ought to reduce harm.

That is a bit glib, but so is your bald assertion that states ought to be concerned only with principle. It is neither part of our legal tradition nor even a plausible interpretation of the foundational ideas of most currently constituted governments.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't know that, as humans currently understand things, your argument really has traction on reality.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by ralusek on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:28PM (#21101262)
Then consider my examples. If the role of the state is to reduce harm, why is alcohol legal? Why are people allowed to be mean online? Why can cars go over 15mph? Why aren't there facial recognition cameras on every corner? Why isn't everyone on mood stabilizers?
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by vincent-toups on Sunday September 29, 2019 @07:35PM (#21110362)
Pretty obviously because the role of the state isn't to reduce harm to the exclusion of everything else. It has multiple goals which it imperfectly pursues. Just like any human institution or individual.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by dragonwriter on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:34AM (#21099181)
> I'll bring up the point I always bring up regarding sex work: why are so many people focused on whether or not this actually produces better results for people?

Because most real world value systems amount, in practice, to rule-bounded utilitarianism, rather than purely non-utilitarian deontology.

> Legislation, by and large and particularly in the United States, is driven first and foremost by principle, rather than utilitarian objectives.

Utilitarian objectives are a set of principles, and while they are usually qualified rather than pure, they are very widespread set of principles and virtually every advocacy campaign appeals to them for that reason.

You are simply wrong if you think most public support for or opposition to legislation, in general or in the US specifically, is based on moral principles that are completely divorced from perception of utilitarian consequences.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by danielbln on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:56AM (#21099274)
> we oppose prohibition from a principled position

Is that true? There are still many dry counties in the US, and full scale prohibition was an utter and total desaster. Seems more that people learned that alcohol prohibition doesn't work which lead to its abolishment, not a principled position.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chrischen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:44AM (#21099034)
It’s really just men who don’t like the idea of women doing these things with their bodies.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kjeetgill on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:07AM (#21099104)
That is absolutely not true. Do you think mothers, sisters, friends, etc. can't be capable of concern for the "moral well being" (for the lack for a better word)?

You don't have to be that conservative to find it at least a little uncomfortable or grimy. I'm not saying that should be the basis of law, but you must understand there's generally stigma associated.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chrischen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:47AM (#21099641)
Yes they can be as a side effect of these morals. But the morals are established by men wanting to control women. There are also women against abortion, heck even women’s rights. A mother or another women still doesn’t have the right to dictate to other women how they choose to take advantage or their own bodies.

You have to look at who does it serve to establish this moral standard, and it serves a patriarchal society that overemphasizes the value of purity in women.

Somehow if the issue focused on gigolos I doubt it would have as much moral opposition.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by kaitai on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:18AM (#21099950)
It serves some women, too. Moral Women can cement a higher place in the patriarchal society than Immoral Women and pass a lot of unpleasant tasks to them.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chrischen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:40AM (#21100507)
That is exactly why there are women that are seemingly against women's rights. A sort of Stockholm syndrome thing going on.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by 413x on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:40AM (#21099214)
There is stigma on many professions. (e.g. delivery boys, cleaners, mc'donalds workers etc.)

I guess, legalized prostitution would bring enough money to be respected. (Like dentists, digging rotten teeth)

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by mensetmanusman on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:01PM (#21104510)
People pass laws to produce better results for some people. Most people do not agree with the principles you describe, ergo current situation.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:40AM (#21099605)
Because in a vast proportion of cases, the prostituted woman is not a consenting partner.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chantelles on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:56AM (#21099862)
I worked for years as a sex worker advocate and in the vast proportion of cases, sex workers all chose various reasons, depending on context, to work in the sex industry. Not one of them was ever prostituted.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Saturday September 28, 2019 @02:27PM (#21102008)
So you’re denying the existence of sex trafficking?

To clarify, I personally favor the Swedish model, which outlaws pimping, brothels, and buying sex but does not make it illegal to be a prostitute.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chantelles on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:41PM (#21103462)
I'm centering the conversation around sex work from the sex worker perspective. Does everyone who works prefer to be independent? Or do many prefer a boss to deal with the day to day? These are basic sex worker educations I received while working in the community (in Toronto).
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by detcader on Saturday September 28, 2019 @08:24PM (#21104068)
Can we say that this counts as "the sex worker perspective?"

> Rachel Moran, a former prostitute who considers the purchase of sex an act of violence against women... holds a very different opinion on who the victims of prostitution are: "The acceptance of prostitution makes all women potential prostitutes in the public view since there are only two requirements for a woman to work in a brothel: one is that circumstance has placed her so […] and the other is that she has a vagina, and all women are born meeting at least one of these requirements."

[1] https://sarahditum.com/2014/02/24/who-do-you-listen-to/

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chantelles on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:50AM (#21107006)
No. That counts as an anti-sex worker perspective. Sex work takes skill, talent, customer service skills and most sex workers derive the bulk of their profit from regular customers who they build relationships with. Also, sex workers are a diverse group who all hold different opinions and experiences of work. Just like some people still like working at Facebook and Google, and some do not.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by detcader on Friday October 11, 2019 @11:36AM (#21225380)
"Anti-sex worker?" The quote gives no opinion about sex workers, only about the men who buy sex and women collectively as a class.

I can't help but be reminded of how people cast Jewish pro-human-rights criticism of the Israeli government as "self-hating Jews..."

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Sunday September 29, 2019 @07:26AM (#21106426)
So you’re not actually just advocating for the “sex worker perspective”; you’re also an apologist for pimps.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chantelles on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:48AM (#21106998)
Did you know that, according to Canadian sex work laws, living off the avails of prostitution is criminal. So, any sex workers with children face the reality that their children can/will be arrested for the same laws created to protect them from pimps. Also, it is an interesting thought experiment to ask yourself what you know about pimps that is not from white supremacist cultural productions.
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by philwelch on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:36PM (#21108390)
> Also, it is an interesting thought experiment to ask yourself what you know about pimps that is not from white supremacist cultural productions.

Ah, there it is.

Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by petra on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:58AM (#21100304)
After knowing many sex workers, if a poor friend came to ask you to choose a career - in what context would you recommend her to work as an escort ?
Re:Cash/Consent: The war on sex work by chantelles on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:41PM (#21103467)
I was a sex worker - a stripper and I highly recommend it to everyone.