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Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by Sendotsh on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:08PM (#21054271)
Good. People in Australia don't take driving seriously. I spend a lot of time on the road, and have lived all over Australia, and the one defining thing I've found in common all over the country is that people are WAY too casual about driving.

Sydney and Melbourne being the worst by far, with it being so bad it has become entertainment[0]

On any given commute you'll see dozens of people playing with their phone while doing 110km/h down the freeway, doing make-up, eating cereal out of bowl, reading, blowing red lights (not "late orange" but "it already went red and now the other direction who got a green have to hit the brakes to not get t-boned", ignoring lane lines, ignoring indicators, and/or ignoring the existence of any/every rule or nearby vehicle.

It's like a national sport. How much of a dickhead can you be in your car then get violently angry if anyone dares even tap their horn at you to remind you the light has been green for 30 seconds now and you're still flicking through Facebook.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/user/DashCamOwnersAustral

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by sjwright on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:26PM (#21055564)
As an Australian who has driven extensively in many countries, my observation is that the quality and attitude of drivers around the world maps fairly closely to the style of the built environment and regulatory environment.

Australian roads are unceasingly sensible. Every road is an appropriate width, every road has a logical speed limit, overtaking zones are clearly marked, heck, every bend on a fast road has a sign indicating the recommended cornering speed. All this sensibleness breeds complacent drivers that rarely need to engage their brains.

The UK is full of incomprehensibly narrow roads, arbitrary speed limits and a national fetish for complex muliti-lane roundabouts. And to top it off, most cars have manual transmissions. All this complexity breeds more competent, switched-on drivers.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by fyfy18 on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @02:38AM (#21057169)
I think that's just a coincidence, my Northern European country sounds a lot like the parents description, but our roads definately aren't easy to drive on and drivers are very agresive which doesn't help.

Speed limits are seen more as a recommendation; if you leave reasonable space between you and the car in front someone will cut in; we have a lot of three lane roundabouts, and large interchanges which are fun in the middle of winter when you can't see the lane markings (or when they decide to resurface it and paint lines a few weeks later); oh and I see plenty of people using their phone while driving every day.

The roundabouts thing is interesting actually. We have a lot of large roundabouts, which I assume stems from Soviet times. In more Western countries they would have traffic lights, but here they are basically a free for all - I think adding traffic lights wouldn't actually help traffic flow as it blocks the traffic further down, in one case there are two large roundabouts ~800m apart, and the road between is always crawling in rush hour.

Last year they repainted all the lines so each lane corresponds to a specific exit or two. When you enter there are signs showing which lane you should be in, then you just follow that lane and don't need to worry about crossing into another lane (plus the lines are solid so you can't, legally). In a lot of cases they have reduced roundabouts from three to two lanes, but the traffic flow has actually increased.

That has caused another issue in that because it's easier to drive on roundabouts, people now drive faster, so getting on is harder if there is a steady stream of traffic. This year they have experimented with adding speed bumps before each entrace (reducing your speed to 30kmh or less) which seems to have alleviated that.

Since they introduced these changes I can't actually remember seeing any accident on roundabouts, where as it was a common event before.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by fit2rule on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @03:15AM (#21057368)
I am also Australian, have driven all over the continent, but currently live in Austria and am constantly having to deal with people who have no clue what a 'minimum safe stopping distance' is .. its just incredible to me that this key safety behaviour is not entrenched in the minds of most Austrian drivers.

I've also noticed that the cars that offer the most 'comfort' to the driver, are the most dangerous for others - the luxury SUV's, the sports cars with high-torque engines, etc. I believe that the environment of the car begets the attitude of the driver - and in many cases its imperious, officious, classist. For some reason, people who drive the more expensive cars believe they 'deserve the road'.

Then, there is Hungary. It is easily one of the most dangerous places I've ever driven, and I've been around the world. Hungarian drivers seem to have absolutely no fear with overtaking slower vehicles, no matter the state of oncoming traffic. So many times I've had someone overtake me - me, doing the speed limit - only to have to crush an emergency lane recovery in split-second timing in order to avoid certain, violent death from oncoming traffic.

All around the world, driving is a cultural artifact. I sure am glad to have gone electric - slow, weak, but it takes me out of the speed-freak zone and puts me in the slow lane, where its .. relative to the other lanes .. pretty safe, all things considered.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by donkeyd on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @04:05AM (#21057628)
I feel like this is a case of "where I live, drivers are worst". I don't know anyone (except maybe the Germans) who would say that drivers in their country are the best drivers. (For the record, the Germans aren't the best either.) I live in the Netherlands and even in our bike infested cities, where you need to be on edge 100% of the time, people are playing with their phones in their manual cars all the time.

Also, by your logic, French and Italian drivers should be really competent, but they're not. If anything, southern European drivers are less sensible than those in the northern countries, that tend to have more sensible, well-maintained roads. However, statistics make it seem that that is not the case. [0]

0: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/2019...

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by sjwright on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @10:30AM (#21060547)
> I feel like this is a case of "where I live, drivers are worst".

If that's what you got from my post then I've failed in conveying my intent. If anything I think that the median Australian driver is among the best in the world. Perhaps even better than the UK, depending on the metric. The only problem is that we're rarely asked to think for ourselves—everything has already been thought about for us.

Really the vast majority of drivers in every country I've visited have been similarly competent. The local variances mainly change the manifestation of badness in the remainder.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by anticodon on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @05:47AM (#21058123)
No. Just about in any South Asian country drivers are orders of magnitude worse than in my country (Russia). The worst offender is probably India. Drivers there are insane. There's no better word for it.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by L_226 on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @07:16AM (#21058663)
I would say this is also false, having driven in India (Maharashtra). It may appear that Indian traffic is anarchy, but there are definitely unwritten rules that most people follow, and native drivers are very aware of how to drive in India. I currently live in Germany, and I follow German road rules - which also happen to be the rules enforced by the state. Just because western style road rules are not being followed, doesn't mean that the drivers are not following any rules at all. /anecdote /opinion /disclamer etc
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by anticodon on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @07:33AM (#21058795)
I've driven in almost all states of India. It's not anarchy. It's anarchy mixed with total contempt towards your own life and life of others.

You can see many times per day how they overpass other cars (sometimes even in 2-3 rows simultaneously: one car starts overpassing, then another starts overpassing first, then third..) just before a blind corner. You can witness several times per day how in the middle of the highway where average speed is about 100 km/h somebody may just make a U-turn without using indicators and passing the double solid line.

You can ride 100 kmph on a highway and then suddenly there's a truck or a bus or a motorcycle on your lane coming into you because the driver decided that waiting 2km for the next place where he can make a u-turn is too long.

If you drive even for one day in India you'll witness all these cases and more.

Statistics of deaths on the roads incidentally confirms this.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by donkeyd on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @05:59AM (#21058204)
Oh, definitely. I was mostly answering this from a 'western' view. I visited Haiti and the only thing that really describes traffic there is anarchy.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by welly on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @05:01AM (#21057921)
Spend a short amount of time on a motorbike in the UK to see how incompetent and switched-off many, many drivers are. Especially in the cities.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by wiredone on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:52PM (#21054623)
>People in Australia don't take driving seriously.

Honestly, as an Australian living in the US, i'm not sure you have enough context. After living in both Asia and the US, we're a nanny state on this stuff. In the US, people barely ever get breathe tested and often drive drunk, speed everywhere (70-80mph is a lot faster than 110-120kmh). I've also seen Facetime in use multiple times while on the freeway.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by batiudrami on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:15PM (#21055499)
Yeah in general Australian driving is pretty good I've found. Japan is the only country I've been to where the driving is clearly better.

Driving in other countries - the Americas, Asia, Europe, even the supposed peak of Western organisation and efficiency Germany had significantly poorer driving than I see in Australia.

But use of phones is an issue and I'm glad to see this being put in place.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by paranoidrobot on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @12:35AM (#21056596)
> in general Australian driving is pretty good I've found

I think driving habits and behaviours are regional.

Comparing the drivers of Newcastle, NSW and Sydney, NSW - just 160KM apart and there's a lot of weird differences.

- When merging/changing lanes - Newcastle drivers tend to speed up/close any gap if you put your indicator on, to prevent you from merging ahead of them. Sydney tends to be more permissive.

- When passing a parked car on a suburban street (single lane each direction), drivers in Sydney will continue on without deviating speed or course significantly. Newcastle drivers will slow down and cross almost entirely into the opposing lane/side of the road. Even on hills and around corners where there's a huge amount of space in their lane.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by 2muchcoffeeman on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @02:59AM (#21057282)
> - When merging/changing lanes - Newcastle drivers tend to speed up/close any gap if you put your indicator on, to prevent you from merging ahead of them. Sydney tends to be more permissive.

You get a variation on this in Sydney. No one wants to be behind another car so they will change lanes and speed to over take you just to improve their position by 1 car. Some will continuously do this, switch lanes with no regard of where they need to be, then create a mess for everyone when they try to merge into the lane they need to be in.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by megaremote on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:00PM (#21055097)
The USA, with 40,000 deaths every single year. More than gun deaths.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by alex_young on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:45AM (#21056902)
No longer true. Cars are getting safer: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by tiew9Vii on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:27PM (#21054872)
Completely agree.

I can’t figure it out though, they have some strict standards getting a license, red p’s for 12-24 months + 120 logbook hours, then green p’s where they are restricted to dangerous below highway speeds so have drivers aggressively overtaking them. Despite this, standards seem far lower than Europe.

The horn thing is really annoying, often the person being beeped can’t move forward anyway due to traffic across a junction and people are just being impatient but sometimes it’s the other way and people are just day dreaming at junctions when the light changeover is quick so you ha e to go.

It seems car first. Cross a road in Europe a car a few hundred meters down the road will back off the accelerator slightly when they see you and let you cross. Australia they see a pedestrian and will speed up as it’s their road and the light is green, they’ll speed up to the point they are deliberately trying to hit you.

Speed limits are annoying here. For such a big country it’s really difficult to travel big distance like you can in Europe or the US. Most people on the highway drive 100km/h as lots of police and the limit is 110. Also everyone will do 100km/h in the outside lane, inside lane doesn’t exist for most people as that’s where the p players are doing 90 and they are afraid of overtaking. It’s also odd as when you pass someone going well below the limit, a minute later they’ll aggressively speed up, fly past, then 5 minutes later they are slowed down and you are overtaking them again when you have kept a constant speed.

I’ve found driving in Northern Africa and Asia far less frustrating than Australia and those countries are bit of a free for all, especially Ho Chi Minh. It’s easier in those countries as no one follows any rules and you know that, AU being 50/50 you just have no idea what drivers are going to do and makes it harder to judge.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by drivingeve on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:48PM (#21055377)
The difference between European and Australian drivers is not that Australians have to do 120 hours of supervised driving, but that the supervisor for the hours of driving in Australia is usually the parents of the learner. So any bad habbits from parents are taught between generations.

Compare that to the European system where you are requiredto hire a professional driving instructor to teach you (at great expense I might add) for the entire time you are learning.

And because of that, the culture in Australia seems to be that driving is a right where as Europeans seem to treat it as more of a privilege.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by jimmux on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:27PM (#21055907)
I got my license in Canberra, where I had the option to skip the driving test by doing enough hours with a qualified driving instructor. It was a big contrast to my previous struggles to get supervised drives with friends and family.

I had picked up a habit of going much too fast around every corner, because the owner of the car I was practicing in insisted that it must be done that way. She did it because that's what her brother taught her. The real instructor got rid of that bad habit very quickly.

It's a bit more expensive, but honestly it's so much quicker to get good and less stressful that I recommend it to anyone who has the option.

People lie in the log book, too. So I don't believe many actually do the 120 hours they claim.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by TheCalicoCat on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:19AM (#21056803)
I got my license the same way and 100% agree. It's a shame that Canberra is planning to move to the logbook system next year. I only know of one person from NSW who actually did the full 120 hours, and that was only because they took several road trips to other cities.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @04:27AM (#21057746)
I don't think that's true in UK. Just that insurance is so expensive that's it's far cheaper to get driving lessons.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by friendlybus on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:36PM (#21056259)
With Aussie lifestyle designed around the car, it is definitely a right. Euro lifestyles can support cars as an option.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by why-oh-why on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @12:40AM (#21056622)
It’s funny you mention Ho Chi Minh City. Vietnamese traffic seems lawless but I’ve come to the realization that people there follow different rules, that’s all.

Example: often you can cut the oncoming traffic off and turn left before them. This has the advantage of not having to wait 2 minutes in the middle of the road hoping that some poor soul will let you go. Instead, you just do it and people will slow down without honking at you (ironically, since they basically use the honk as a “I’m here too” signal)

Which one is better? Having left turns take forever or simply slowing down for 2 seconds when you cross an intersection?

Driving on motorbikes especially is infinitely smoother than in any other countries. I’ll take driving in Ho Chi Minh City over LA any day.

If you cut people off in the US people will honk, get unreasonably mad and chances are a police car will appear out of nowhere.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by cm2012 on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:20AM (#21056806)
Considering Vietnam has twice the rate of death from motor vehicles as the USA, I know which rules I would choose to live with.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by why-oh-why on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @11:19AM (#21061116)
Only twice? That's a great rate.

Keep in mind that:

- Most Vietnamese traffic is on 2 wheels; motorbikes are inherently less safe, that's not necessarily related to traffic rules.

- "The [US] federal government estimates that per mile traveled in 2016, the number of deaths on motorcycles was nearly 28 times the number in cars." [1]

I would classify Vietnam as safer for a biker than the US.

That said, street safety can certainly be improved in Vietnam: people wear dirt-cheap helmets that protect nothing. [2]

[1]: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/motor... [2]: https://noipictures.photoshelter.com/image/I0000TpoYiE1y2Nw

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:28PM (#21055578)
I drive in Australia, and I'm not like what you have described.

My general attitude is to be courteous. That doesn't mean I dont nip through on amber, or go over the speed limit by a couple kph, or park.

However I do behave as I would want other to behave. I don't drive too close to cars in front. I zip feed always. I indicate, even if nobody is around. I treat bikes and bicycles like other cars. I defer to busses. I slow down and wave pedestrians across if it's safe. Just good manners really.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by jimmux on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:34PM (#21055945)
Courtesy makes all the difference, but it's not easy sometimes. Too many drivers are happy to take advantage of 2-second gaps, or use an early indication of lane change as a sign to beat you to a gap.

I always wonder how people like that act outside vehicles. It's really no different to jumping a queue, but I bet of you did that to them outside a metal box they would call you out.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by dwd on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:57AM (#21056964)
Inconsiderate drivers are the ones who need to be detected and sent back to driver training. They're the ones who try and pass when you're about to merge and leave you nowhere to go.

I also find overly courteous drivers to be dangerous, particularly when they ignore right of way.

There was a crossroad I had to go through daily that often had a long line of cars waiting because it crossed the offramp joining a major highway and a motorway. You would get idiots stopping to let cars go and actually causing accidents behind them because they caused the offramp to quickly congest out onto the highway.

It got so frequently bad that an enterprising local stuck their own Do No Stop cardboard sign there.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by o-__-o on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @12:26AM (#21056551)
It really is different from jumping a queue, though. You have no means to call that person out.

In a queue, you can appeal to the emotions of a clerk, attendent, or some other agent with power. Further, if no power agent exists or is sporadic enough that they virtually don't exist (like, say, police on the same roadway you describe) then the action of calling out devolves to simple game theory in which the best mode of action is to simply not participate.

I challenge you to change your mindset:

>take advantage of 2-second gaps

that 2-second gap is simply a buffer. when buffers are filled do we call it 'being taken advantage of' or do we simply empty the buffer and continue our routine?

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by dwd on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @02:13AM (#21057044)
I've had a driver in the Brisbane CBD cross multiple lanes on an empty road and swerve at me when I was crossing halfway between red lights. Some people are just jerks I guess.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by fraudsyndrome on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:54PM (#21056360)
> strict standards getting a license, red p’s for 12-24 months + 120 logbook hours

It was an open secret (by secret I mean bragging) that people would forge their logbook hours - that hour rule only came in semi-recently so I'm not sure on the age of some posters here who haven't mentioned this.

Either way, P plates statically have a high propensity to get into accidents although from experience alone I would not say the majority of these are the "aggressive" drivers you see on the street. Maybe it's my own bias but it feels like the majority of P platers are trying to drive safe because of their inexperience, it's the full licence drivers who believe they know best and start showing aggressive behaviours.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by hnick on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @03:47AM (#21057530)
It was 50 hours in NSW back when I did it ~20 years ago, and most people still forged it. It was mainly out of laziness though (not updating every time, just fill it in when you book the test).
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by therealx on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:17PM (#21055212)
I found the same thing - in the chezh republic, it was a far more free for all than any other urbanized country I had been to, however things ran way smoother because you counted on everyone else following no rules.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by GordonS on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:24PM (#21054401)
True story, in the UK: I once saw a guy using an electric razor while driving - and overtaking at ~80mph.

I regularly see women doing makeup while driving, stretching up to see their face in the mirror, their car often drifting from left to right.

The things some people do while driving are... amazingly fucking stupid.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by brokenmachine on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:20PM (#21056168)
I'm in Australia and I once saw a lady in a 4WD holding coffee and a cigarette in the one hand, and a phone in the other.

She had kids in the back and looked to be driving only using her elbows.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by WatchDog on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:21PM (#21054826)
As an Australian that has driven in multiple countries, I would choose driving among Australians over many if not most other countries. US drivers are much more aggressive, particularly in cities like LA. UK drivers seem roughly equivalent. Drivers in Germany and the Netherlands seem to drive safer. Driving in South Korea, China, and India is terrifying.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by rosege on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:10AM (#21056755)
Im an Australian who has lived in the Netherlands and I found them pretty aggressive drivers. Generally really nice people outside the car but not so in it.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by Skunkleton on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:10PM (#21062336)
I've never driven in Australia, but I have driven pretty extensively in NZ. Are the drivers similar there? If so, I would agree with you.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by pratyushc on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:31PM (#21054894)
Driving around in other countries and then coming back to Australia really opened my eyes to how aggressive (especially towards cyclists) the drivers are here.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by rosege on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:14AM (#21056773)
yes I really don't understand the hatred of cyclists - yes they might slow you down for 30 secs - is it really that big a deal?
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by King-Aaron on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:36AM (#21056877)
The hilarious irony of drivers getting angry at cyclists is that by just driving their car they are adding more to congestion and commute times than the cyclists they're so irate at.
Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by rstuart4133 on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @07:19PM (#21065741)
> People in Australia don't take driving seriously.

I guess that means they don't take it seriously enough for your tastes, but if you've driven elsewhere in the word you would find Australian's take adhering to the road rules _very_ seriously compared to just about anywhere else.

Other's here have called in nanny state'ism. Maybe that's true, but it's also true the expansive nature of the country means we drive long distances at high speeds on wide roads. Someone deliberately driving down the wrong side of the road, which I have seen numerous times in countries like France and Italy would get someone killed in Australia. A drunk drivers mistake at 50km/hr it likely to end up at the panel beaters, at 100km/hr at the morgue. Even in major Australian city like Brisbane I'd say I do most of my driving at 100km/hr. So there is a point to nanny state'ism.

On the other hand if you had driven in highly congested environments like France and Italy tend to have, you would notice a little extra chaos on the roads actually helps. Other drivers are seem to be far more accommodating of you breaking the rules because you've been sitting there for 5 minutes and it is your turn.

Re:Australia uses new technology to catch drivers on phones by hnick on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @03:40AM (#21057499)
Agree with everything as a Sydney dweller, and especially this...

> tap their horn at you to remind you the light has been green for 30 seconds now and you're still flicking through Facebook.

The number of times I've seen this happen then the idiot wakes up, goes, and the light is now red - and we're all still there. Better not even tell them next time.