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Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by mbell on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:01AM (#21041167)
This is rather misleading. The RTL8366 pictured in the tweet doesn't have an 8051 in it which is why it's absent from the datasheet. I don't see anything in this thread that contradicts this. The RTL8367 does have an 8051 in it, and it is covered in the datasheet. As near as I can tell this entire claim is based on reading a RTL8366 datasheet when the part in question was a RTL8367.

I'm not seeing anything nefarious here at all, the RTL8367 is designed for 'smart switches', the 8051 is there to run the webUI. In general, 8051s are _everywhere_, it's one of the most used IP cores in the world. I'd bet the average household has a a few dozen of them in various devises.

EDIT: Looking through some older tweets from the same author, I think the claim is based on pinout similarities between the RTL8366 and the RTL8367. My guess would be that these two parts are the same die and the RTL8366 parts are the ones where a defect was found in the CPU core which would be a likely source of manufacturing defects.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by joezydeco on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:22AM (#21041236)
It's not always a binning thing.

I've used similar parts, like bluetooth transceivers, where there are two SKUs: one is a cheaper commodity part and comes with built-in firmware.

The other more expensive part allows for modifiable firmware (and, thus, exposes the processor inside). My cynical POV is that the chipmaker knows they'll be spending more internally on SDK development/support and field rep time. So that needs to be recaptured in the cost of the part.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by sharpneli on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:59AM (#21041384)
It is expensive to tape out a different chip. As 8051 originally was about 50000 transistors that’s peanuts nowadays.

Likely cheaper to manufacture a single chip and do market segmentation via software than manufacture two if the savings are measly (let’s assume 16nm process) 1/500 mm^2 per chip.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by mbell on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:31PM (#21042618)
It's not so much the 'core' as the memory. For example it looks like the RTL8367 has 16KB of program memory, 32KB of data memory, 256bytes of SRAM and a 12KB nic buffer. These memory cells will make up the bulk of the transistors in the 8051 part of the chip and tend to be points of manufacturing failure. In many cases the chip would be designed with more memory than it needs under the assumption there will always be a few failures. So if you need 16KB, you design in 18KB and turn off the rows/banks that fail or test as the worst. If too many fail you sell it as next memory size down, or in this case you zap a couple fuses and sell it as the part without an MCU on board. Of course this doesn't always work, sometimes you need more of the non-perfect parts than you have to fill orders so you just zap the fuses anyway.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by close04 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:40AM (#21041564)
I think these are actually built on 150nm process. Using a modern process like 16nm would command some hefty premiums, and some redesign work. This is what old fabs end up manufacturing: high volume, low cost ICs.

But you're right about the rest. The segmentation is achieved with fuses and firmware.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by bhouston on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:30AM (#21041508)
Intel only taps out about three different dies per generation line I believe. For example the Skylake-SP line just has LCC, HCC and XCC dies, and the the whole multitude of their product line comes from those three.

https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_...

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by 0xcde4c3db on Sunday September 22, 2019 @04:23PM (#21043697)
There are also chips that support two different feature sets via a mode pin, but instead of documenting the mode pin, the modes are sold as separate products with the mode pin simply labeled as Vcc/ground/NC.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:56PM (#21045115)
> My cynical POV is that the chipmaker knows they'll be spending more

I don't even see the cynicism. But, in any case, most people would probably consider the standard business school price finding advice to be more cynical: costs are a lower limit only. Beyond that, only the customer's willingness to pay is relevant.

Airline fares are good examples, or any of the food products being sold branded as well as unbranded/store-brand/generic/white label versions.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by paggle on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:02AM (#21041660)
It’s probably just cheaper to include the 8051 in every part and disable it for people who have bought the cheaper part. The way that some Teslas are range handicapped and can be upgraded over the air and given out for free during emergencies.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by zxcvbn4038 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:25AM (#21041771)
Back in the day my father was a service tech for NCR retail systems. For one of the lines they shipped out every system fully loaded with ram and disk - however how much their customers got to use depended on jumper configurations which the service techs would set and verify. I think IBM does the same thing with their mainframes - they ship out fully loaded but you can only use what you pay for, the rest is used as hot stand-by for hardware failures.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by hobojones on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:40PM (#21043069)
The company I now work for does something similar. We sell our product at what is essentially max capacity, capping memory/disk space/CPU per the contract. When the customer needs the extra capacity or wishes to upgrade, all that’s required is some settings changes and a restart.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by alfiedotwtf on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:07PM (#21044285)
I remember someone telling me that the printer in my primary school was only a black printer. When they wanted to upgrade to colour, a technician came down and flipped a dip switch
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by mehhh on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:54AM (#21041936)
Was this during NCR's bad years where AT&T ran the business into the ground?

I don't think NCR really recovered till the NCR 7878 came out, setting the bar for a robust scale/scanner

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by hobojones on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:54PM (#21042780)
Former NCR tech here. I can confirm the parent’s comment - we’d routinely have to validate/ensure jumpers based on entitlement. As for recovery, I worked for NCR once they regained their independence from ATT and they were still running themselves into the ground. By the time I left (around the era of the 7878) things improved slightly.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by mehhh on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:11PM (#21044905)
NCR seems to be able to survive, but I wonder if the non-Windows point of sale systems will finish eating the low & midrange business.

My old employer is prepping for the shift with their software vendor currently, should allow for a much longer period of support & remote debugging...

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:41AM (#21041851)
I may get flack for this, but that sounds ethically questionable. The sale has been made, why not just give the customer a better car for free?
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by icegreentea2 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:27PM (#21042192)
It certainly feels ethically questionable from a certain perspective. But we can look at it in a specific way. We want pricing to be fair. A typical customer's perspective of a fair price is that is should approximate the unit cost of production plus the up front development cost of a product amortized over units. In this view fairness, if a family of widgets all have the same hardware, and use the same based software to enable or disable different features, they should all have the same price.

However, there's another view of fairness (or maybe just a desirable feature of the markey). It should be possible for a customer to purchase only the features required to meet their requirements, and that they should be able to spend less money on less features.

Those two views of fairness can be in contradiction with each other.

The ability of a company to be able to provide a family of products at a variety of feature and price points cheaply is aided by their ability to do software based control of features. Use of a single physical platform reduces cost (which aids the final customer). If a company had to price everything at a single feature/price point, the average customer will see an increase in price to pay for features they do not want.

Anyhow, that's the argument. Still feels icky though.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by ac29 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:37PM (#21042653)
Because then no one would buy the more expensive, higher margin car, purchases of which are indirectly subsidizing the cheaper one. This would push its price up.

The alternative is to design a car with a smaller battery pack. This would mean additional design work, and less efficiencies of scale. This would make the cost of both tiers of car go up.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:06PM (#21042847)
I understand this, but it's shifty because they already sold a physical good at a certain cost at an agreed upon price. If they can't stand to offer the thing they already sold at a price they already got paid then maybe they should charge more.

The way this is phrased it's just differing margins for the same physical good and no additional cost for the manufacturer to justify a higher price. (Not sure if this is an accurate assessment, but that is what I get from the comment.)

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by abofh on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:18PM (#21043292)
Let's imagine you need a cpu.

Suppose that once r&d is considered, two chips (single/dual core) cost roughly the same to manufacture.

I could sell everyone the 2 core processor and say sorry to customers needing less, you have to pay full price. Or I could maximize the market I can sell to, and offer the same product with a burned out pin that locks out the second core. Or even better, sell everyone a soft upgradable 1 core, so you buy the entry level product, and when/if you need it, you can buy into the upmarket model.

But the important part here is: ignoring r&d. Yes, the hardware I'm selling you could do more, but you're subsidizing fewer engineers, so you only get access to their efforts, not every effort my company has ever produced.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:36PM (#21043426)
I don't need another over-explanation of such justifications. I referenced the phenomenon in CPUs elsewhere in this thread.

This part:

> Or even better, sell everyone a soft upgradable 1 core, so you buy the entry level product, and when/if you need it, you can buy into the upmarket model

... is still one that I would have trouble with, were I the manufacturer. I would be inclined to throw away profits on high end sales and price them all low for these scenarios, based on my desire to be fair to the customer and not run the thing like a casino with physically dubious upsells for what they already purchased. Yes you read that right. This is one reason why I am not in a position to be running Intel.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by TomVDB on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:29PM (#21044072)
Let’s take this way of thinking to the field of software, where every additional license sold has essentially zero cost.

Are software companies allowed to charge a price for their free-to-produce products at all?

If they are, how would you justify that?

And why would that justification not apply to CPU vendors, if they’d label their hardware as freebies where you’re just paying for a perpetual license?

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:00PM (#21044248)
Software is not a physical good in the same way a CPU or a car is. Also, as you seem to acknowledge, when you purchase software, you are technically acquiring a license. Remove for a moment that this is controversial for some (see FSF). I think it would be a tougher sell to say when you buy a car or a piece of silicon that you don't own it. (There is firmware and microcode, sure.)
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by TomVDB on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:45AM (#21046229)
What about software that comes with a license key dongle? Now you're buying hardware as well. :-)

> Also, as you seem to acknowledge, when you purchase software, you are technically acquiring a license.

That's really just semantics.

When you buy a mainframe with some CPUs disabled, you're not only buying the hardware, you're also buying a license for the OS, which includes the ability to use a certain number of CPUs of the machine.

You're commenting earlier that you'd price the higher SKU the same as the lower SKU, but I think it's just as likely that you'd simply not make a higher SKU because there'd be no extra profit in doing so.

It may seem perverse that hardware is being sold with capabilities deliberately crippled, but doing so if often one of the only ways to justify developing these higher SKU capabilities to begin with. This kind of product differentiation makes it possible for customers to buy a higher SKUs that otherwise simply wouldn't exist.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by caf on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:46PM (#21045073)
If they can't stand to offer the thing they already sold at a price they already got paid then maybe they should charge more.

This, I think, is the crux of the matter.

Yes, they could just offer one model, at a price point somewhere between the two different models. However, now some customers who were happy with the lower-end model are priced entirely out of the market, which is bad both for those customers and the seller. Balancing that, customers for the higher-end version have paid less (good for them) and some new customers will have entered the market because the new features/price-point is attractive to them (good for them and the seller).

It's not obvious which of these will dominate (so whether everyone is net better off or not), but in the absence of any hard data relying on the self-interest of the seller to maximise their own benefit seems reasonable here.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by CaliforniaKarl on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:49AM (#21041903)
For chips, it’s possible for a chip to go through the production process, but have a defect in part of it. When that happens, the manufacturer disabled access to that part, and sells it as a lower-capability product.

On the other hand, if everything came out good, then the manufacturer sells the part as the high-end product.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:51AM (#21041920)
Yeah, I thought of when I first followed overclocking in the late 90s, and Intel had a reputation for selling artificially slow chips in those circles. But in that case rating the appropriate clock is a subjective exercise, and they don't want the part to start failing if pushed to its limits. GP here made it sound like it was rather more harmless in this case, not sure if that is a mistaken impression of mine or what.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by Osiris on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:09PM (#21043238)
Unless demand for the less expensive part exceeds the defect rate.

AMD CPUs, especially the 3-core parts, were often unlockable by re-enabling the disabled cores in BIOS. Lucky buyers could get 4 cores for the price of 3.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by kurthr on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:16PM (#21044339)
I'd agree, but there's little reason to speculate. If you can't run it (disabled by fuses), I'm not sure it matters... if you want to confirm the silicon presence, then a little concentrated sulfuric acid to take the package off, and just a 100x microscope and you'll be able to see the memories for the uP.

A strange accusation without proof.

Fair warning I can't open the Tweet, Twitter is blocking me... or maybe I uBlock them? so I'm making a statement in similar unsupported ignorance.