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Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:41AM (#21041851)
I may get flack for this, but that sounds ethically questionable. The sale has been made, why not just give the customer a better car for free?
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by icegreentea2 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:27PM (#21042192)
It certainly feels ethically questionable from a certain perspective. But we can look at it in a specific way. We want pricing to be fair. A typical customer's perspective of a fair price is that is should approximate the unit cost of production plus the up front development cost of a product amortized over units. In this view fairness, if a family of widgets all have the same hardware, and use the same based software to enable or disable different features, they should all have the same price.

However, there's another view of fairness (or maybe just a desirable feature of the markey). It should be possible for a customer to purchase only the features required to meet their requirements, and that they should be able to spend less money on less features.

Those two views of fairness can be in contradiction with each other.

The ability of a company to be able to provide a family of products at a variety of feature and price points cheaply is aided by their ability to do software based control of features. Use of a single physical platform reduces cost (which aids the final customer). If a company had to price everything at a single feature/price point, the average customer will see an increase in price to pay for features they do not want.

Anyhow, that's the argument. Still feels icky though.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by ac29 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:37PM (#21042653)
Because then no one would buy the more expensive, higher margin car, purchases of which are indirectly subsidizing the cheaper one. This would push its price up.

The alternative is to design a car with a smaller battery pack. This would mean additional design work, and less efficiencies of scale. This would make the cost of both tiers of car go up.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:06PM (#21042847)
I understand this, but it's shifty because they already sold a physical good at a certain cost at an agreed upon price. If they can't stand to offer the thing they already sold at a price they already got paid then maybe they should charge more.

The way this is phrased it's just differing margins for the same physical good and no additional cost for the manufacturer to justify a higher price. (Not sure if this is an accurate assessment, but that is what I get from the comment.)

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by abofh on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:18PM (#21043292)
Let's imagine you need a cpu.

Suppose that once r&d is considered, two chips (single/dual core) cost roughly the same to manufacture.

I could sell everyone the 2 core processor and say sorry to customers needing less, you have to pay full price. Or I could maximize the market I can sell to, and offer the same product with a burned out pin that locks out the second core. Or even better, sell everyone a soft upgradable 1 core, so you buy the entry level product, and when/if you need it, you can buy into the upmarket model.

But the important part here is: ignoring r&d. Yes, the hardware I'm selling you could do more, but you're subsidizing fewer engineers, so you only get access to their efforts, not every effort my company has ever produced.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:36PM (#21043426)
I don't need another over-explanation of such justifications. I referenced the phenomenon in CPUs elsewhere in this thread.

This part:

> Or even better, sell everyone a soft upgradable 1 core, so you buy the entry level product, and when/if you need it, you can buy into the upmarket model

... is still one that I would have trouble with, were I the manufacturer. I would be inclined to throw away profits on high end sales and price them all low for these scenarios, based on my desire to be fair to the customer and not run the thing like a casino with physically dubious upsells for what they already purchased. Yes you read that right. This is one reason why I am not in a position to be running Intel.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by TomVDB on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:29PM (#21044072)
Let’s take this way of thinking to the field of software, where every additional license sold has essentially zero cost.

Are software companies allowed to charge a price for their free-to-produce products at all?

If they are, how would you justify that?

And why would that justification not apply to CPU vendors, if they’d label their hardware as freebies where you’re just paying for a perpetual license?

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:00PM (#21044248)
Software is not a physical good in the same way a CPU or a car is. Also, as you seem to acknowledge, when you purchase software, you are technically acquiring a license. Remove for a moment that this is controversial for some (see FSF). I think it would be a tougher sell to say when you buy a car or a piece of silicon that you don't own it. (There is firmware and microcode, sure.)
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by TomVDB on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:45AM (#21046229)
What about software that comes with a license key dongle? Now you're buying hardware as well. :-)

> Also, as you seem to acknowledge, when you purchase software, you are technically acquiring a license.

That's really just semantics.

When you buy a mainframe with some CPUs disabled, you're not only buying the hardware, you're also buying a license for the OS, which includes the ability to use a certain number of CPUs of the machine.

You're commenting earlier that you'd price the higher SKU the same as the lower SKU, but I think it's just as likely that you'd simply not make a higher SKU because there'd be no extra profit in doing so.

It may seem perverse that hardware is being sold with capabilities deliberately crippled, but doing so if often one of the only ways to justify developing these higher SKU capabilities to begin with. This kind of product differentiation makes it possible for customers to buy a higher SKUs that otherwise simply wouldn't exist.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by caf on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:46PM (#21045073)
If they can't stand to offer the thing they already sold at a price they already got paid then maybe they should charge more.

This, I think, is the crux of the matter.

Yes, they could just offer one model, at a price point somewhere between the two different models. However, now some customers who were happy with the lower-end model are priced entirely out of the market, which is bad both for those customers and the seller. Balancing that, customers for the higher-end version have paid less (good for them) and some new customers will have entered the market because the new features/price-point is attractive to them (good for them and the seller).

It's not obvious which of these will dominate (so whether everyone is net better off or not), but in the absence of any hard data relying on the self-interest of the seller to maximise their own benefit seems reasonable here.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by CaliforniaKarl on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:49AM (#21041903)
For chips, it’s possible for a chip to go through the production process, but have a defect in part of it. When that happens, the manufacturer disabled access to that part, and sells it as a lower-capability product.

On the other hand, if everything came out good, then the manufacturer sells the part as the high-end product.

Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by asveikau on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:51AM (#21041920)
Yeah, I thought of when I first followed overclocking in the late 90s, and Intel had a reputation for selling artificially slow chips in those circles. But in that case rating the appropriate clock is a subjective exercise, and they don't want the part to start failing if pushed to its limits. GP here made it sound like it was rather more harmless in this case, not sure if that is a mistaken impression of mine or what.
Re:Realtek RTL836x series of Ethernet switch ICs has a 8051 ... by Osiris on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:09PM (#21043238)
Unless demand for the less expensive part exceeds the defect rate.

AMD CPUs, especially the 3-core parts, were often unlockable by re-enabling the disabled cores in BIOS. Lucky buyers could get 4 cores for the price of 3.