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Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by d1zzy on Thursday September 19, 2019 @06:40PM (#21021471)
> "Something" doesn't mean "anything". You can't offer your services in exchange for e.g. my body parts. Why are we willing to ban that but not our data?

Because if you were to run a survey over the general population the large majority is fine not having to pay for gmail, google search, maps and other "free" services while some data may be collected doing so while a much smaller percentage thinks it's OK to sell their organs for that?

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by pgcj_poster on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:32PM (#21022171)
I strongly suspect that if you asked people 50 years ago whether it was ok for companies to eg. track everywhere most people go, I think the vast majority would have said no. Google et al. just started spying on everyone without any serious debate over whether it was right. Then once people caught on, they either had to stop caring about privacy, or they had be Richard Stallman and eschew pretty much all mainstream computing technology.

If someone went back in time to tell people that this new internet thing was going to lead to the US having more surveillance than East Germany or the Soviet Union, there would have been laws passed and systems designed from the start to prevent it from happening. The fact that it didn't happen this way, and our culture's privacy norms have been destroyed as a consequence, is more reason to act to prevent further damage, not a reason to just give up.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by darawk on Friday September 20, 2019 @03:04AM (#21023913)
> I strongly suspect that if you asked people 50 years ago whether it was ok for companies to eg. track everywhere most people go, I think the vast majority would have said no. Google et al. just started spying on everyone without any serious debate over whether it was right. Then once people caught on, they either had to stop caring about privacy, or they had be Richard Stallman and eschew pretty much all mainstream computing technology.

Sure, but if you had phrased the question more fairly and said "Should it be ok for a company to give you free services in exchange for tracking everywhere you go?" I think almost everyone would have said yes.

> If someone went back in time to tell people that this new internet thing was going to lead to the US having more surveillance than East Germany or the Soviet Union, there would have been laws passed and systems designed from the start to prevent it from happening. The fact that it didn't happen this way, and our culture's privacy norms have been destroyed as a consequence, is more reason to act to prevent further damage, not a reason to just give up.

My intuition here is the same as yours. That this is a bad thing. That privacy matters in an intrinsic sense, not an operational sense. But i'm not so sure that's really true anymore. The privacy ship has sailed off into the sunset for a while now, and at least to me, the harms don't seem that substantial. All that data is mostly used to give me ads that are more targeted to what I might want to see anyway. There certainly could be lurking latent risks about, but it's a little hard to see exactly what they are.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by afiori on Friday September 20, 2019 @05:32AM (#21024798)
> Sure, but if you had phrased the question more fairly and said "Should it be ok for a company to give you free services in exchange for tracking everywhere you go?" I think almost everyone would have said yes.

Then you should add shadow profiling, data banks linking together data of dozens of different companies, politically targeted advertisement that pretends to be from human users.

Yes the free market is nice and all, still the internet is a hell of a creepy place. It is undeniable that the reason this was allowed (comparing to direct mail advertisement for example) is that it was always believed to be impossible.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by cft on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:52PM (#21022275)
I understand the requirements to clearly disclose, so that a user can make an informed decision, but deciding for the user is hubris.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by SXX on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:04PM (#21022001)
General population is simply not aware of how much surveillance is involved and how much of their private information said companies collect, use or sell to 3rd parties. Many are happy to get "free" service in exchange for "some data", but most people people would be very much against someone data mining their health or pregnancy status, using some sophisticated algorithm to selling something harmful to their kids or messing with their mood when they're in depression to maximize profits.

Most people don't understand the risks and how badly mass surveillance done by Google / Facebook / etc can be abused. So akin to situation with tobacco industry someone have to educate them about this.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by BoorishBears on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:26PM (#21022777)
> Most people don't understand the risks and how badly mass surveillance done by Google / Facebook / etc can be abused.

This is totally dodging the issue.

Would they pay instead of allowing that collection?

Given the choice of "pay for this service", "stop using this service", "give up your data", even with a full understanding of the risks and the extent of this data, the general public has shown time and time again they will take the last option.

People do not like to pay for things.

I see way too many arguments about privacy that doesn't seem to grasp that the core of today's tech industry is built around this fact.

People will pay 5$ for 50 cents of coffee beans and enough sugar to drown a fly a day, but they will never pay 5$ a month to access nearly the entirety of mankind's collective knowledge at their fingertips in milliseconds in the form of a search index spending millions of dollars a year to index it all.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by csande17 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:11PM (#21023002)
> People will pay 5$ for 50 cents of coffee beans and enough sugar to drown a fly a day, but they will never pay 5$ a month to access nearly the entirety of mankind's collective knowledge at their fingertips in milliseconds

I pay a lot more than $5/month for Internet service.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by ianmcgowan on Friday September 20, 2019 @12:06AM (#21023265)
Would you pay $5 on top of that ISP charge to Google, so that your search experience is ad-free? Would you pay $5 for fastmail.com's standard plan over gmail?
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by pmontra on Friday September 20, 2019 @02:25AM (#21023763)
$5 for a tracking free Google, including no Google ads on any site? Maybe. But then it would be $5 to any other tracking network and there will probably be some other tracking with no opt out. I'll be still running adblockers and privacy extensions, so paying is pointless.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by BoorishBears on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:50AM (#21026623)
Ha, case in point. A technical person talking themselves out of a hypothetical situation where they pay, now imagine everyone else.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by pmontra on Saturday September 21, 2019 @11:21AM (#21035872)
The point is that I wouldn't be paying for a search service, I would be paying for not to be tracked, which is something I don't want to happen. It's so similar to paying for insurance against fires (think of gangster movies.) I don't like it.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by johnny22 on Friday September 20, 2019 @04:39AM (#21024468)
I in fact do pay for fastmail.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by BoorishBears on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:13AM (#21026287)
You and the vast minority of internet users.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by lastpingstandin on Friday September 20, 2019 @12:26AM (#21023325)
Agreed.

I recall people were talking about turning back to piracy in response to the fragmentation of streaming services.

Disney plus will cost around 7 dollars a month, Netflix costs 13, HBO costs 15. This is about 23, 45, and 50 cents per day respectively.

Yet this change was enough to cause some people to angrily proclaim that they'll go back to illegally downloading movies and tv shows.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by vsl on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:02AM (#21023458)
Agree about the overall point, but this example is unfortunate: complaints about fragmentation are not only about money: crappy apps, less convenience, lack of availability (outside US), etc.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by esyir on Friday September 20, 2019 @04:59AM (#21024581)
I'd think single source vs fleet of disparate services is a bigger concern. If I have to track and maintain 10 subscription services to get the stuff I want, I'd rather just pirate it, the inconvenience factor is too high otherwise.

Look at music, this seems solved there.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by skinnymuch on Friday September 20, 2019 @08:49AM (#21026087)
If Spotify was $50 or $75 a month a lot more people would not be paying and do things illegally. Can’t blame just fragmentation.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by MKinley on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:13AM (#21027577)
One option I also think we are forgetting, Services like ProtonMail and Tutanota. Both are private and encrypted, both are free (with an option to pay for more services). These services are out there, but general knowledge of them is not so high. I believe more users would switch to them if they knew about them. My own parents came to me asking if there was something they could do after being creeped out/scared by big techs privacy invasive tracking and stalking. They weren't aware of the availability of other services and yet they went looking when it got bad enough. How much sooner for others if they were aware of these alternative services? We could all argue back and forth about both sides, but I believe that both sides would be truly surprised about what would actually happen.

edit: typos

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by Lucadg on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:25AM (#21023527)
I agree and this seems to be the main problem: we are losing privacy today but we will suffer most of the consequences tomorrow. So most of us are not aware of the real cost we're paying and unable to make an informed decision.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by akamaozu on Friday September 20, 2019 @05:43AM (#21024860)
Welcome to democracy, where an individual with zero understanding of an issue can vote on it and is legally entitled to have their opinion taken seriously.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by Lucadg on Saturday September 21, 2019 @01:17AM (#21033653)
Yes, I think about this often and it appears to be a bug in the democracy system but any attempt to tie voting rights to knowledge seems to create even more bugs.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by hharlequin on Friday September 20, 2019 @08:46AM (#21026058)
It really does feel like there should be some kind of aptitude test involved in getting a vote, doesn't it?
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by homonculus1 on Friday September 20, 2019 @08:55AM (#21026133)
We need to require at least some minimal standard. A common-sense starting point would be literacy...
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by afiori on Friday September 20, 2019 @07:42AM (#21025528)
Just for context: do you have any alternatives?
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by jlarocco on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:10PM (#21022392)
> Because if you were to run a survey over the general population the large majority is fine not having to pay for gmail, google search, maps and other "free" services while some data may be collected doing so

That's nonsense.

Nobody can make an informed decision because nobody knows exactly what data Google collects or exactly how it's used.

And unless you've actually run a survey you can't even speculate about whether people are okay with it or not. If your claim was true, why would this law even exist? You're okay with it, but privacy is a highly personal issue.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by dao- on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:17PM (#21022072)
> Because if you were to run a survey over the general population the large majority is fine not having to pay for gmail, google search, maps and other "free" services while some data may be collected doing so

How is this an argument against the law? It doesn't make it illegal to share data but requires that users can opt out. If said large majority is fine with surveillance, I guess Silicon Valley can relax.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by umvi on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:50PM (#21022890)
He's saying being able to "opt out" is absurd. It's equivalent to getting the product for free in most cases.

"Hey, I want to use your free service but I want to go ahead and opt out of the part that enables it to be free" You don't see a problem with that?

It would be like if there were a restaurant that gave free food in exchange for filling out surveys (data collection). So you eat the free meal and then "opt out" of doing the survey.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by dao- on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:12AM (#21023481)
The idea that free is only possible by trading data is absurd. E.g. Google search and maps can provide sponsored results without knowing everything about you. News sites can have ads related to their content and general target audience.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by abacadaba on Friday September 20, 2019 @03:10AM (#21023957)
> You don't see a problem with that?

in this case, NOPE

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by AstralStorm on Friday September 20, 2019 @07:11AM (#21025303)
Opt out is a problem anyway, GDPR is better in that it requires information up front, opt in.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by kmonsen on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:10PM (#21022037)
This is a strawman, you can still monetize without detailed user information, even still with ads.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by playpause on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:45AM (#21027245)
> if you were to run a survey over the general population the large majority is fine not having to pay for gmail, google search, maps and other "free" services while some data may be collected doing so

This is simply not true. When informed about it, a clear majority of people would prefer not to be surveilled, and are uncomfortable with unknown third parties having profiles on them, ads following them around the internet, etc.

The fact that these people continue to use these services anyway (even after being informed) is not a sign that they are 'fine' with it. It is because they have no choice. Even as an engineer, I've found it unfeasibly difficult to avoid being surveilled while continuing to live a normal life. For most people it's a non-starter. They have no choice.

Freedom to choose is essential to a free market. Regulation, done well, can increase market freedom.

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by 100100010001 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:25PM (#21021740)
This is your opinion, unless you actually did a survey of violating a citizens privacy by big tech. Have you?
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by rootusrootus on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:21PM (#21022094)
Presumably you have? Do share!
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by 100100010001 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:18PM (#21022446)
No need! I’m not presenting a hypothetical survey’s results without evidence. The person I was responding to is, unless they actually have such a survey. I asked for it and no one answered. Therefore, until there is a time with supporting evidence, we can’t even qualify the opinion as a theory, let alone a fact.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by rpastuszak on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:01PM (#21021608)
I think you’re missing the point.

At least I know where my data is. Have you ever read a GDPR popup partner list? Do the people you mention understand how gmail business model works?

Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by afiori on Friday September 20, 2019 @07:46AM (#21025549)
The partner list is not there for informing users, it is there for accountability in case the decide to silently add new partners.
Re:Silicon Valley is terrified of California’s privacy law by buboard on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:26PM (#21021748)
"Have you ever read a BGP table"? Arguing that there are too many people in ad exchanges is a very weak argument. This is the internet, which enables global scale exchanges of all kinds of things. GDPR is a law designed for the 1800s