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Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by SolaceQuantum on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:20AM (#20961401)
So forgive me, because I'm a very ignorant person:

Why don't we just jail executives responsible if they consistently fail to abide by the law?

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by rayiner on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:46AM (#20961564)
To nitpick: jail is where you hold people pending trial. Prison is where you send people as punishment.

That aside:

(1) We do jail executives, all the time.

(2) The reason maybe you think we don’t jail enough executives is because it’s hard to prove they did anything wrong. The criminal standard for proof is very high: beyond a reasonable doubt. When it comes to “blue collar” crimes, that’s pretty easy to meet. You wouldn’t believe the amount of evidence that exists in a typical drug crime! The defendant tried to sell drugs to an undercover cop; they found more drugs and an illegal firearm in the car; they searched his phones and got extensive evidence of drug transactions. (That is also why so many such crimes result in guilty pleas.)

But here the government didn’t win a case. It settled. You settle because there is risk you won’t win at trial. If you have to get accounting experts on the stand to argue about whether the thing that happened is illegal or not, good luck proving that beyond a reasonable doubt. (I don’t know what the standard is in France I don’t expect it’s much different.) Additionally, this is a tax case. It’s a “you put this number under section 3.3(b) instead of 3.3(c).” To secure a criminal conviction in a tax case, you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant’s interpretation of the law was not different from the government’s but that no reasonable person would have interpreted it the way the defendant did. Tax positions are carefully vetted and at a large organization like Google you’ll never take a tax position that isn’t at least plausible.

Stepping back, the problem is that you’re taking the government’s position at face value. At least in the US, the government prosecutes many cases that are, at best, based on aggressive or creative interpretations of the law. Of course the government says “Google defrauded the tax office.” Of course they have to say that. But dig into some high-profile white collar prosecutions. In the US they’re generally a matter of public record. They often are far from clear cut.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by joncrane on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:13AM (#20961780)
Jail is for both pre-trial and for inmates serving sentences of 1 year or less (give or take; that's decided at the county level so it's just a rough rule of thumb; for some it's 18 months).

Also, the vast majority of "executives" never see the inside of a cell, even pre-trial. They might be in a holding pen for a few hours, but they always make bail and if the judge/prosecution is particularly concerned, the suspect gets additional conditions such as some kind of monitoring/curfew. A great example is Paul Manafort.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by namdnay on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:08AM (#20961726)
To nitpick your nitpick: that's only the case in America - everywhere else, Jail and Prison are synonyms
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by ferrisford on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:12AM (#20961763)
Nah, he's wrong, even in America.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by Jedd on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:13AM (#20961779)
To go one level deeper, elsewhere it's gaol.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by mkl on Friday September 13, 2019 @10:20AM (#20962400)
I don't think that's true. Even for .uk, Google returns 55.5 million hits for "jail" and only 600 thousand for "gaol". For .au it's similar, and .nz is a little more even, but still "jail" wins by a lot.

From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/04/why-did-we-ever-spell-ja..., "The Guardian long persisted with gaol too but changed to jail in the 1980s, like the other English papers."

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by Jedd on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:26PM (#20968034)
Undoubtedly common usage, especially in the pop media, has regrettably shifted towards the North American trends, as with so many words.

In Australia there's a move away from prison/jail/gaol and towards 'corrective/correctional/detention facility / centre' presumably to make the places sound more aligned with their political or social intent.

However each of the Australian state's active legislation still refers to them as gaols.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by pmyteh on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:18AM (#20961813)
If you attempt an 'aggressive or creative' interpretation of the rest of the criminal law, you will very likely be going to jail. People have been trying innovative forms of theft for centuries, and the laws are broadly enough drafted that you're still going to be stuffed.

You're right about the high standard of proof required for tax cases, and the difficulties of prosecuting complex white collar frauds, but I'm not sure that we have to set the mens rea bat as high as we do. Plenty of other crimes can be prosecuted on "known or ought to have known" rather than having to prove intent.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by IfOnlyYouKnew on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:45AM (#20961558)
First: because it's really hard to pinpoint exactly who is responsible for something like this in a large organisation. Is it the CEO? They are unlikely to know enough about French taxation. Is it the local accountant? That's probably a team as well.

Second: Cases like this often arise from different interpretation of laws that are all at least plausible. Companies may tend to be somewhat too optimistic in their interpretations, but it's rare, at least at that size, that they actively try to commit tax fraud.

Third: It is the company that profits from the offense, so it's only fitting to apply any sanctions to it.

Fourth: Making this criminal law would raise the required standards of evidence to a level where few of these cases could ever be prosecuted.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by hrktb on Friday September 13, 2019 @11:10AM (#20962824)
> Is it the CEO? They are unlikely to know enough about French taxation

This line of thinking becomes a shield for executives, letting them push subordinates into corners where they'll have very strong incentives to do illegal things. And they will benefit from these illegal actions, while being responsible of nothing as they won't know enough on any subject.

This feels like a moral hazard paradise to me.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by stingraycharles on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:06AM (#20961714)
> Is it the CEO? They are unlikely to know enough about French taxation.

That's besides the point. If you want to operate in a certain country, you need to - as a business - familiarize yourself with their laws.

The CEO is ultimately responsible for ensuring the company abides the law. If the CEO doesn't know enough about French taxation, that's not an excuse not to follow the rules: the CEO should then delegate the task to someone they trust, but ultimately it's their responsibility.

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by esoterica on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:00PM (#20963946)
If a McDonald’s cashier steals from a customer should the CEO go to jail as well? How far do you want to take the concept of “the CEO is criminally responsible for everything their underlings do”?
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by CasualSuperman on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:16AM (#20971298)
Is this cashier giving the money to their manager? No, they're pocketing it. Just because they were on the clock doesn't make it the responsibility of the company.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by MichaelApproved on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:44AM (#20962061)
> because it's really hard to pinpoint exactly who is responsible for something like this in a large organisation.

That's usually the case for most crimes, which is why we have detectives investigate them.

How do you find a murderer in a large city? You Investigate!

Same goes for corporate crimes. Investigate!

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by Aunche on Friday September 13, 2019 @11:23AM (#20962932)
When Amazon didn't include state sales tax in their transactions, did you report your purchases and pay the proper sales tax on them? Millions of Americans didn't and a good number of them knew that they were supposed to. Should they all be sent to jail for failing to abide by a very outdated law?
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by xiphias2 on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:29AM (#20961466)
The answer is quite simple: jailing people for fiscal fraud is not that popular among lawmakers for some reason.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by frenchman99 on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:37AM (#20961515)
Especially in France. Some people are notorious for living in grey areas or unlawfully for their whole life, but never go to jail. And perhaps worse than that, constituents keep voting for them despite.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by haissam on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:42AM (#20961541)
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by wott on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:46AM (#20961568)
I mean, they had been almost openly doing it for over 30 years...
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by zoobab on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:36AM (#20961508)
Law makers prefer to send people to jail for stealing sandwiches:

https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/entry/prison-ferme-pour-vol-de...

Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by baud147258 on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:46AM (#20961566)
He was already supposed to be in jail.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by wodenokoto on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:42AM (#20961544)
“For some reason” does not constitute a simple answer. I’m not even sure it’s an answer at all.
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by close04 on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:35AM (#20961987)
I read it as irony/sarcasm. Crimes commonly perpetrated by lawmakers and people of influence are punished very lightly... "for some reason".
Re:Google to pay $1B in France to settle fiscal fraud probe by AFascistWorld on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:32AM (#20961487)
You need to pay hundreds of thousands a year to jail a guy.