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Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by droidno9 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @02:17AM (#20937079)
For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x....

The pertinent part of the bill:

2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contractor unless the hiring entity demonstrates that all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(A) The person is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact.

(B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business.

(C) The person is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed.

Of course, there's a bunch of exceptions for various professions toward the end.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mikekchar on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:22AM (#20938769)
As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors???

I really hope I'm reading that wrong. I might want to do work for a California company one day ;-)

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by codingdave on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:16AM (#20939777)
You might be reading it wrong... everything in law is in a grey area until further defined in court, but legal documents should typically be read with full boolean logic applied to all the words:

"control and direction" - sure, they give you direction. But do they control what tools you use, when and how you do it?

"connection with the performance of the work" - Are they controlling the final deliverable, or the performance, again, as in when and how the work is done?

I suspect that software consultants have a reasonable argument that they control their own work, while their clients have control over the acceptance of the final deliverable, so the above points are not fulfilled.

Edit: And for B, it just seems like having a 2nd client would fulfill that criteria. Your 2nd client is outside usual course of the 1st clients business.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by RonanTheGrey on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:42PM (#20945041)
> I suspect that software consultants have a reasonable argument that they control their own work, while their clients have control over the acceptance of the final deliverable, so the above points are not fulfilled.

What if the consultant is forced to attend every single meeting the client (via PM/other manager) decides to schedule? That seems to violate the spirit of "control over performance" part of it.

Curious because it is recently relevant to me..

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mdorazio on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:03PM (#20945738)
That's not really how performance is likely intended to be interpreted here. It's more along the lines of if the client told you "you have to code exactly from X time to Y time using our computer at Z location". At that point you're basically an employee rather than a contractor providing a service/product. Meetings are related to, but not the sole component of performance of work here.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by drawkbox on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @01:53PM (#20942853)
Additionally on (A) this is massively beneficial to contractors. They cannot force you to work in an office or the hours you work which is key for a freelancer/contractor/creator/developer.

The items are already part of California's contract law well before this current gig economy bill.

California classifies 'independent contractor' as [1]:

1. Whether the person performing services is engaged in an occupation or business distinct from that of the principal;

2. Whether or not the work is a part of the regular business of the principal or alleged employer;

3. Whether the principal or the worker supplies the instrumentalities, tools, and the place for the person doing the work;

4. The alleged employee's investment in the equipment or materials required by his or her task or his or her employment of helpers;

5. Whether the service rendered requires a special skill;

6. The kind of occupation, with reference to whether, in the locality, the work is usually done under the direction of the principal or by a specialist without supervision;

7. The alleged employee's opportunity for profit or loss depending on his or her managerial skill;

8. The length of time for which the services are to be performed;

9. The degree of permanence of the working relationship;

10. The method of payment, whether by time or by the job; and

11. Whether or not the parties believe they are creating an employer-employee relationship may have some bearing on the question, but is not determinative since this is a question of law based on objective tests.

The key line for software developers who are independent contractors is "Whether the principal or the worker supplies the instrumentalities, tools, and the place for the person doing the work;"

Contractors that work in a home office, using their skills to bring to a company for a project, at their own place, time and tools, that is an independent contractor.

It could be argued that drivers that own their cars, that can choose to accept or deny a particular task, without it hurting their competitive rating, could be seen as an 'independent contractor'.

I think the gig economy bill from OP is targeting known companies that are taking advantage of this by wanting 'independent contractors' that they can schedule and dictate their day and use metrics against them when they aren't available at the time. They should pay people as employees if they need people available then have contractors fill in when needed. This will probably lead to some fulltime Uber/Lyft and the rest floaters that can be like the current gig setup.

[1] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_IndependentContractor.htm

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by Ensorceled on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:43AM (#20938902)
If you really are a consultant and not just a skilled worker with enough pull to negotiate your own terms, B should not apply, you'll be doing something unique that is not normally part of their business. Also, A would not apply because the manager should not have the expertise to actually directly manage you and instead should be setting objectives out in a statement of work.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by swalsh on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:17AM (#20939184)
In 2019, it's probably not too out of scope for nearly any business to argue software is a core part of their daily activities. The digital transformation is basically done, if in the last 10 years you didn't turn your company into a quasi-tech company your competitors did and you died.

I'd make the guess that one could go into finer detail on what specific type of software development falls in-line with the daily activities, but software development in general might be too broad. An ecommerce company probably could argue php development is part of its daily development, but if it hired a contractor to modify their build system, that might be outside the scope of their core business.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:50AM (#20940779)
When they say "usual course of business" they mean the revenue generating activity, not essential support functions.

I.e., Uber could not outsource driving if it calls itself a transportation company, but it could outsource accounting functions.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by swalsh on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:55AM (#20940820)
I'm just not convinced that's a straightforward question to answer. I once worked for a hardware company that outsourced new hardware development to a contractor. We had a guy in house for maintenance, and the occasional hardware bug that propped up, but we only designed a new box once every 5 years or so... it just didn't make sense to have the team in house. We did manufacturing in house, and we had a huge software team... but though our money came from selling the hardware, we didn't do that in house.

As the company grew much larger, we did eventually expand our product line, and did build a team. But for several years, we just had 1 dedicated hardware guy.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by wool_gather on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:20AM (#20941078)
Sure; there are always edge cases. Non-straightforward situations like this are exactly the reason judges exist, if it comes down to it.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by woah on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @12:29PM (#20941942)
What a huge drag on people’s livelihoods, making a broad swath of mutually beneficial business relationships illegal until someone goes through a multi year legal battle with the state.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by DuskStar on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @04:53PM (#20944575)
> Uber could not outsource driving if it calls itself a transportation company

And that's why they're not a transportation company - they're a company that matches two sides of a marketplace connecting drivers with passengers.

Or at least that's one of the directions I'd expect their lawyers to look into.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by LorenPechtel on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:55PM (#20944013)
Using software is within the daily activities of most businesses. Writing it is not.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gwbas1c on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:31AM (#20939930)
Most of the software contractors I know easily meet (A) and (B). In these cases, they bid on the job based on its requirements, have multiple customers, define how they will implement the software, and sometimes even have employees.

When I personally worked as a contractor, the other contractors I worked with mostly bounced from short gig to short gig. That would probably meet (B). (A) was a bit more subjective.

If you're a long-time contractor for a single customer, and that single customer has a high level of direction over your day-to-day work, you are at risk of being defined a W2 employee by a legal entity like the IRS. (Or the state of CA.) In such a case, it's important that you clearly understand the legal difference between a contractor and an employee; and have some frank discussions with your "customer." It's important to point out that your "customer" bears the risk of you being redefined as an employee, so it's in their best interest to make sure that your contractor relationship follows the law as best as possible.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @01:47PM (#20942793)
>When I personally worked as a contractor, the other contractors I worked with mostly bounced from short gig to short gig. That would probably meet (B). (A) was a bit more subjective.

I'm confused. You seem to be applying (B) to the contractor somehow, where my reading is that it applies to the company doing the contracting. It doesn't matter what the contractor is doing; if a company makes widgets, they can't hire a contractor to make widgets. It doesn't matter if the widgets are a different color or if the contractor only ever makes widgets for any given company for a few months at a time.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gwbas1c on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:54PM (#20944008)
> You seem to be applying (B) to the contractor somehow, where my reading is that it applies to the company doing the contracting

Yes and no. A company that hires contractors who bounce from gig to gig meets (B) assuming that the software in the other gigs applies to different businesses.

Assume I make websites on contracts. If I make a website for a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker; the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker clearly meet (B).

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @04:07PM (#20944117)
In those specific examples they meet (B), irrespective of the contractor's work habits. If you make a website for another web developer, the web developer who hired you might not meet (B), regardless of who else you've made websites for. I admit the analogy is a bit tortured, but the point is that (B) depends entirely on the contractee's business and what they're hiring the contractor to do.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by Donald on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:44AM (#20938910)
You can still form an LLC and hire yourself as a w-2 employee.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by strictnein on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:51AM (#20940792)
IANAL, but don't you need an s-corp for that?

This seems to be saying the same thing: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/true-owner-llc-cannot-w2-inc...

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:14AM (#20941020)
Yes. But an LLC can be an s-corp.

The article is referring to true LLCs, i.e., those which have elected pass through treatment.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by throwaway_law on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:56AM (#20939553)
>I really hope I'm reading that wrong. I might want to do work for a California company one day ;-)

In theory this should be really good for software contractors, because in this should rip out the middlemen (i.e. the firms who get the contract to do the work and turn around and subcontract the work to you for pennys on the dollar). Now in theory these middlemen are gone and you as the software developer should be able to obtain the contract directly directly from the company.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @01:49PM (#20942819)
Huh? The sorts of company-to-company contracts where the individual "contractors" are W2 employees of a contracted company are totally unaffected by this legislation. If anything, this legislation is likely to introduce that relationship where it didn't exist before (e.g. Uber might contract with local companies formed solely to employ Uber drivers in that locality, so that Uber doesn't have to deal with all of the complexity of treating all of its drivers as employees.)
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by throwaway_law on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @02:42PM (#20943334)
>The sorts of company-to-company contracts where the individual "contractors" are W2 employees of a contracted company are totally unaffected by this legislation.

You must have missed the part of my comment that specifies:

"the firms who get the contract to do the work and *turn around and subcontract the work to you for pennys on the dollar"

>(e.g. Uber might contract with local companies formed solely to employ Uber drivers in that locality, so that Uber doesn't have to deal with all of the complexity of treating all of its drivers as employees.)

Then what is to stop this new employment firm Uber has to contract with to obtain drivers from deciding after they have the infrastructure of drivers in place from cutting Uber out and launching their own ride-share app?

At the end of the day Uber isn't claiming drivers as contractors because of complexity, they are doing it to lower their costs.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:35PM (#20943823)
"the firms who get the contract to do the work and *turn around and subcontract the work to you for pennys on the dollar"

Hmmm, I've never seen that arrangement before. Maybe it's a common thing somewhere though. I can't imagine why anyone would take that kind of job.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mbarronj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:39AM (#20939401)
I would imagine most software "contractors" that work for a major company are not 1099 - that carries a bunch of risks. Most "Contractors" are W2 employees of a labor for hire company. That still seems perfectly legal. "Hiring entity" would be Big Staffing Company, your customer would be Big Internet Company.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mrfusion on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:39AM (#20938875)
Wow. You might be right about B. That could be interesting. (I don’t think A is any different than existing federal laws)
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 8draco8 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:05AM (#20939057)
If I read this correctly then if a software house wants to hire software developers as contractors then they can't do that because building software is their main course of business.

However companies like Airbnb (hospitality) and Uber (ride sharing) will be able to hire programmers as contractors because writing software is not main source of income for those firms.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by bencollier49 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:28AM (#20939298)
I guess that'd be decided in the courts. But Airbnb and Uber have to develop software in order to carry on their business, so I would come down on the other side of the argument.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by robotdongs on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:38AM (#20939384)
I disagree, the apps facilitate their business but Uber and Airbnb aren't in the software development business, as they don't develop software for sale as their primary means of income.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by bencollier49 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:46AM (#20939457)
To paraphrase, they're both software companies who happen to do rentals and cars. There's also nothing in that law which talks about core business. It's to do with work in the normal line of business, in other words - work which is regularly performed by the company, rather than specialist work for which a contractor is required.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:17AM (#20941051)
No, they're both taxi services that happen to use software.

Core business is understood to mean primary revenue generating activity, which is getting paid for facilitating rides. They don't charge any money for the use of the software.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by dnautics on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:37AM (#20940018)
technically Uber is a software company according to its incorporation and Rasier is the transportation services company.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by wastedhours on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:57AM (#20939000)
My reading is that it's similar to the UK's IR35 regulation? Do any UK contractors here have any additional experience of working in/out of IR35 to give some context?
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by bencollier49 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:22AM (#20939234)
Well, it's a different law, but IR35 often hinges on whether you're part of the chain of command in the business, and whether you could substitute another qualified person without the agreement of the client.

HMRC provide this tool to determine employment status:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by deadbunny on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:29AM (#20939311)
As a note on the tool, it is woefully biased towards you being classed as inside IR35.

It classifies the contractors who wrote the tool itself inside IR35 while HRMC (the people contracting them to write the tool) do not.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:01AM (#20939032)
If what you do as a software consultant is outside of the usual activities of the company you work for I suspect you should be fine.

Uber however is a taxi company and the brunt of their primary activities are done (atm) by contractors. Driving people around is their core business - even if they will probably give the defense that they're only a middle man with an app that links independent drivers up with people looking for a ride.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by dumbfounder on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:57AM (#20939565)
I think they would argue they are an app company that connects drivers to people that need driving. Or food to people that need food. Etc. What about power sellers on ebay? Since they generate all their income from selling stuff on ebay should they be classified as employees of ebay?

Could uber work around this by having everyone form their own LLC to be an uber driver, and making that process painless for people? (or making it painful and not caring about the long term ramifications)

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:57AM (#20940845)
No, because eBay's business model is charging sellers for services. They don't mandate what you sell, how you deliver, or what payment company to use (now that they no longer own PayPal)
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by bluedino on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:07AM (#20939073)
What about FedEx? Aren't most of their drivers contractors?
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by lr on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:21AM (#20939221)
FedEx works on a franchise model. The franchisee may indeed need to classify its drivers as employees.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:58AM (#20940856)
FedEx would also be affected.

This is one of the reasons UPS supported the bill. It creates parity between the two.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by edouard-harris on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:41AM (#20939410)
The bill makes an exception for engineers, among other professions:

> An individual who holds an active license from the State of California and is practicing one of the following recognized professions: lawyer, architect, engineer, private investigator, or accountant.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by throwaway_law on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:50AM (#20939488)
That would not apply to software developers, even if they call themselves engineers, software developers are not licensed professional engineers (i.e. civil engineers).

For example a Software Developer can't start a professional corporation in California like a lawyer, architect, civil engineer, accountant etc...

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by csunbird on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:28AM (#20940557)
unless they have a college degree
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by throwaway_law on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:46AM (#20940735)
a College degree != a professional license
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by blackflame7000 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:04PM (#20943575)
The American National Society of Professional Engineers provides a model law and lobbies legislatures to adopt occupational licensing regulations. The model law requires:

1) a four-year degree from a university program accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Committee (EAC) of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET),

2) an eight-hour examination on the fundamentals of engineering (FE) usually taken in the senior year of college,

3) four years of acceptable experience,

4) a second examination on principles and practice

5) written recommendations from other professional engineers.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by adwww on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:53AM (#20939525)
Is a software engineer really a recognised proffesion in CA?

It's a proffesional level job, but reconisation usually means being a member of some sort of proffesional body - no idea what the software one of those would be?

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by blackflame7000 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:02PM (#20943558)
I think they only have it in Texas as of now
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by pishpash on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:51AM (#20939493)
Software "engineer" is not a (licensed) engineer, for the hundredth time.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by PorterDuff on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:46AM (#20940734)
It's a shame that doesn't exist. I've always thought you could make an especially strong argument for licensing for embedded software people, for many of the same reasons that a PE is licensed.

It wouldn't be a requirement for a job necessarily, but not a bad thing to have.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by chroma on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @12:27PM (#20941920)
I doubt such a certification would have any correlation with ability. Maybe the platonic ideal of training and testing that you're thinking of, but not a certification written by the US government. Even competent parts of the government like NIST take forever to update their standards. It would be worse for a licensing bureau with practically no in-house software expertise.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @01:55PM (#20942868)
You can get a computer engineering PE, which would probably be appropriate for the vast majority of embedded software developers. There was a software PE for a few years, but my understanding is that it was dropped for lack of interest.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by kmlx on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:24AM (#20938779)
it's not clear to me. if i work as a contractor for software development companies in California, will I be classified as an employee?

'cause these look like every long-term contractor needs to become an employee in one way or another.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by Ensorceled on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:40AM (#20938884)
You probably are an employee unless you are providing specialized consulting expertise and have several clients.

In this case, it's just financially to your benefit to be a consultant. This sword will cut both ways.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by pieix on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:49AM (#20937550)
Thank you for posting the exact wording of the bill.

Which of these three clauses are not satisfied by drivers for a ridesharing company?

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by droidno9 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @04:03AM (#20937606)
The burden of proof would be on Uber and Lyft to show: (B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business.

This would be a hard sell because Uber and Lyft are in the business of providing transportation to people. They may argue that they're only providing the platform that enables drivers to provide rides, but considering the amount of evidence that says otherwise, I'd like to see their lawyer making that argument with a straight face.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by lovetocode on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:31AM (#20938431)
I’d have to side with Uber and I don’t think their lawyers will have a hard time arguing it. Uber doesn’t own, lease or maintain the vehicles. If the argument is that Uber is a transportation company than how can a transportation company operate if they don’t have any vehicles?
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by rtpg on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:18AM (#20938745)
They don't own, lease or maintain the vehicles because they're trying to claim that the drivers aren't employees.

It's like saying that the drivers aren't employees because Uber doesn't provide health benefits.

Companies routinely get in trouble for forcing their employees to buy their own equipment. But it still happens all the time because of the power imbalance even when they're employees.

This is one of the many thing which makes all this such an existential threat to Lyft/Uber. Even just when it comes to minimum wage there will be a huge fight because so many drivers make less than that when the equipment is taken into account

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mobilefriendly on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:53AM (#20938972)
Plus Uber has at various times assisted with vehicle financing and insurance. And they're working on creating a fleet of autonomous cars.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by zaarn on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:00AM (#20938635)
The employees have to buy and maintain the vehicles themselves, doesn't really absolve Uber from being a transportation company, after all, they make transportation happen on their platform as their main business effort.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by pishpash on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:38AM (#20938865)
Nonsense. eBay makes selling happen on their platform, does that make eBay a store and all sellers employees of eBay?

Uber also is a technology company just like eBay.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by robotdongs on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:46AM (#20939456)
Sellers are neither contractors nor employees for eBay, they're customers, just like those who sell something at Christie's aren't an employee or contractor of Christie's but another type of customer.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by zaarn on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @12:34PM (#20942001)
There is a crucial difference; ebay Sellers can pick their customers. They can perform the same sale outside ebay. Customers can pick who to buy an item from. Ebay doesn't take a cut of the sale either, they take a charge for displaying the item on their store page, which the vendor also has to advertise and design on their own.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by pishpash on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:45PM (#20945623)
Have you even used eBay? It is against the TOS to solicit or conduct a sale on eBay offline, to bypass eBay, and eBay absolutely takes a 10%+ cut off sales called the Final Value Fee. eBay also enforces how sellers use their platform including using incentives, rules, and feedback scores to show or not show listings or even kick them off. Similarly, Uber riders can reject a driver as can drivers reject a rider for any reason so they choose. Try again.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by zaarn on Thursday September 12, 2019 @01:22AM (#20948279)
Atleast where i live, ebay offers the option to complete the sale of a product offline, and you're free to contact the seller and make a different deal on the product whichever way you like. Well, and sellers on ebay can still run their own store and advertise it on the product page (for which they are still fully responsible).

If Uber riders were able to pick the driver they wanted and drivers were able to design their own advertisement page the riders see as well as being able to negotiate with the rider directly without loosing the Uber's platform protection, I would agree.

The relationship between customer-seller is just much different than rider-ridee.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mdorazio on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:14PM (#20945791)
eBay is marketplace where sellers and buyers transact on their own terms - sellers set their own prices and buyers choose from multiple options to purchase things. Uber is not a marketplace - drivers do not set their own prices and riders cannot choose from multiple options when selecting a driver.

If Uber wants to be treated as a marketplace and sidestep this new law, it needs to make significant changes - if drivers are truly independent contractors they should be able to set their own prices at a minimum.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by lovetocode on Thursday September 12, 2019 @06:52AM (#20950023)
This comment makes the most sense to me
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by bluedino on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:08AM (#20939088)
eBay sells goods, Uber doesn't.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by lovetocode on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:35AM (#20938467)
My comment is strictly anecdotal
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by imglorp on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:56AM (#20938990)
On this test, I think they'll argue they're a software company - they make apps to facilitate a relationship between rider and driver.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mises on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:34AM (#20939963)
Then this won't cover them as people seem to think it does, because the actual driving is not uber's business. They run a market-place in which others operate; the actual driving is indeed outside of the hiring entity's usual business. Regardless, there seems to be an obvious loop-hole for uber lawyers to chase.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by dnautics on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:39AM (#20940044)
The obvious loophole for the businesses to use is to start charging drivers for the service, which makes them customers and not employees.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:22AM (#20941103)
How is that a loophole?

They would need to redesign their entire app and business model to do that.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by dnautics on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @12:51PM (#20942158)
I guess they just fired 450 people so it'll be hard to find the programmers to implement something that even superficially gives them the argument that it's a two-sided market. e.g. let drivers set their prices (but make it really hard to change their settings) and give passengers "the best deal" (but make it relatively difficult to search for other deals).
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by djrogers on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:12AM (#20940997)
> They run a market-place in which others operate;

A marketplace generally allows those who operate in it to set their own pricing. The fact that Uber exclusively determines both cost and pay for the drivers would run counter to your 'marketplace' argument.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by gamblor956 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:20AM (#20941081)
If they ran a marketplace they would have competitive bids from drivers, customers could negotiate it choose drivers, etc.

They have literally none of the hallmarks of being a marketplace.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mlthoughts2018 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:27AM (#20938395)
Also (A) would probably be a big issue, since Uber, Lyft etc. actually do interfere fairly directly with exactly how a driver provides service, even giving them a constantly-updating rating from detailed feedback collected from riders, and manipulating rides sent to drivers to influence what time of day / parts of town they end up working in to satisfy macro level shifts in demand that the larger organization observes.

It takes serious mental gymnastics to say a driver is not simply an employee of the company, in terms of operational workflow. Drivers aren’t going off and figuring out everything (or even hardly anything) about giving rides at their own discretion, or even just with minor intervention from a central dispatch. The whole thing is constantly controlled in lock step by the central dispatch, and Uber, Lyft, etc., employ data scientists and other experts specifically to make it more centrally coordinated based on data.

Frankly the only thing the driver controls is the financial risk of the car itself and clocking in / clocking out overall (though this is also manipulated with incentives).

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by pishpash on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:51AM (#20938954)
You seem to imagine what you want to see. Drivers choose whether to work, when to work, where to work, whether to accept jobs, whether to complete a job or cancel it, whether to take the route suggested or not, whether to take jobs from other gig companies at the same time, whether to run personal errands in between, whether to take breaks, whether to heed feedback given by their own customers, whether to be in areas where demand will be high and jobs are likely, whether to be influenced by incentives or other payments dictated by market conditions, etc. What is the interference?

Au contraire, it is the various governments over the years that have re-regulated drivers (cannot drive in certain areas at certain times, must display decal, must carry license, must pay ransom fees, cannot stop in places, etc.) in ways that have taken away their control over work. We're headed back to capped and regulated taxis, unfortunately. New York City already has a black market trading TNC plates, just like medallions, and prices are back to taxi levels. Hope you like that.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mlthoughts2018 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:17AM (#20939787)
Drivers do choose whether to work, just like employees do. They also choose when to be on the clock, which is the single item from your comment that can even loosely be used to argue they could be contractors. Drivers definitely don’t choose where to work, that’s dictated by the apps’ central scheduling algorithms, and only might be related to the driver’s current location, and not in any way chosen by the driver.

Choosing the route, for example, is a service the ride hailing companies rely on the driver to perform. Like an employee.

Choosing to run an errand, give me a break? You can’t be serious? Employees do that stuff all the time. That type of thing is not related to the distinction between contractor or employee.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by miracle2k on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:55AM (#20940824)
> Choosing to run an errand, give me a break? You can’t be serious? Employees do that stuff all the time. That type of thing is not related to the distinction between contractor or employee.

If you work, say, in a restaurant and decide you want to go pick up your laundry, expect the shift supervisor to tell you no.

Certainly some employees enjoy that flexibility, but that is entirely at the discretion of your employer.

Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by mlthoughts2018 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @01:49PM (#20942814)
My sister who works as a waitress in a restaurant routinely checks in with her boss to leave for brief periods related to child care, usually around pickup/dropoff from the bus at the end of the school day. This type of arrangement is very common, even in chain stores or big retailers.
Re:California passes bill that classifies gig economy worker... by C1sc0cat on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:09AM (#20938693)
The control one is the main one here.