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Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by umvi on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:22AM (#20928502)
So basically desperate people ruin everything?

Say I use Uber to take advantage of HOV lanes going to and from work (and make a little extra cash). Now because desperate people have commandeered the platform as their sole source of income, I should not be able to do that anymore?

Seems like you can't have nice things at all because of this. If I make an app called "Clean Streets" that pays a dime per piece of litter picked up from local streets, desperate people would try to turn it into a full time living and I would be sued for abusing people, not paying living wage, not giving full benefits, etc. (even though I just wanted to incentivize passively cleaning up of litter, geez)

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by jeltz on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:44AM (#20928782)
Yes? Why do you think we need things like minimum wage and OSHA? Because there are desperate people and people who exploit them.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by vasilipupkin on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:05AM (#20929002)
you can’t mix all things together as an argument for some unrelated third thing. Yes, we need OSHA which has nothing to do with the fact that people are choosing on their own to drive for Uber because it is convenient for them. If you classify them as employees, many of them won’t be able to do the thing they are voluntarily choosing to do.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by lazyasciiart on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:19AM (#20929169)
They are all the same category of things - making it illegal for a person to work in a job that they are volunteering to take. Maybe it's illegal because the pay is below minimum wage, maybe it's because they are doing something without following the safety requirements of OSHA. Some people think this is a sign that minimum wage/child labor laws/any such restriction should be removed. Others, like myself, think that it should be possible for everyone to have better options available so that nobody does want to work for scraps.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by vasilipupkin on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:28AM (#20929274)
“The same category of things” still doesn’t make it relevant. It’s obviously not illegal in the US to drive a taxi cab and cab drivers do not make any more money than Uber drivers. The issue is that if someone wants to earn part time income, Uber provides a great option. And these rules would destroy that option. I really don’t know why people cannot be left to make this decision for themselves.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by wozniacki on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:45AM (#20929453)
From looking at the condition of the drivers and the cabs they maintained before the arrival of Uber & Lyft, I don't think NYC's medallion system (or its equivalent in other cities) were following any modest safety requirements that were in place back then.

People loved these ride-hailing apps because of how lousy the typical taxi cab experience was for most people.

~ Most of the drivers were not native English speakers and would not put any effort into conducting their business genially.

~ They would refuse to take credit cards despite having card readers or would disable them to take cash.

~ At late hours you were at the mercy of the dispatcher (from the central office) if they would send a taxi at all or if the driver would take your business instead of ditching you to pickup passengers for longer (and more profitable) trips.

~ There was zero accountability in a whole host of areas like that.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by bt848 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:49AM (#20929518)
There were always computer-dispatched car services in New York, decades before Uber. The reason people prefer Uber is because Computer Car costs $60 to go to the airport and Uber, by contracting with desperate amateurs and their unmaintained jalopies, undercuts their price.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:52PM (#20931073)
Those services were, and still are, much worse than Uber and the like. They're not bad in any absolute sense; just relatively bad. I'm pretty sure they weren't and aren't "computer-dispatched" in the same way Uber and the like are either. For one, you almost always had and have to speak to a person by phone, and often more than once, e.g. to receive updates about when a driver could be expected to arrive.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by Consultant32452 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @03:13PM (#20932249)
A study in 2000 suggested your average low level street dealer made $20-30k/yr [1]. That's no benefits, no OSHA, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, is frequently violent, etc. Surely things have changed, particularly with the spreading decriminalization of marijuana, but I think it's still relevant. When we're talking about restricting poor people from accepting some kinds of work, we must bear in mind that we may like their other options even less.

[1]: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittVenkates...

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by SilasX on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:45PM (#20943899)
Heh, I wonder if a more effective way to wage the War on Drugs would be to stop prosecuting street-level dealers for drugs, but simply enforce employee status on them :-p
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:49PM (#20931038)
> Others, like myself, think that it should be possible for everyone to have better options available so that nobody does want to work for scraps.

It sure seems like a lot of people will have to continue to work , e.g. for less than minimum wage, and without almost any legal protections, until better options are made available to them.

I'm more inclined to welcome incremental improvements, no matter how modest, than to bemoan everything short of some kind of ideal possibly-possible future.

For one, does "everyone", for you, include every person in the world? Should everyone making a living with less than "better" options be forced to stop working as they are now and wait for those better options to materialize? It seems pretty obvious to me that accepting something less than perfect is better than refusing to accept anything that falls short in the interim.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by applecakes24 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:26AM (#20929239)
Some of the people on this website are insanely cloistered lol holy cow. Those dang desperate (read: poor) people ruin everything!
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by repolfx on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @02:20PM (#20931433)
You don't actually need a minimum wage, as it's a very recent invention. Things worked fine before that was introduced. And do you really have to assume employers always "exploit" employees? That's the basic idea of communism and it's always a disaster. Employers don't exploit labour. It's a trade that leaves both sides better off.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by maxehmookau on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @04:17AM (#20937687)
> Employers don't exploit labour.

lol

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by zxcvbn4038 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @09:23PM (#20935689)
Yes, was a problem long before Marx came around. Since recorded history and probably even earlier then that. That’s just human history, I’m pretty sure there are types of both ants and bees that enslave other insects and make them maintain their colonies.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by DataWorker on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:03AM (#20928981)
That’s why capitalists love immigration and outsourcing. Desperation lowers operating costs.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by umvi on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:52AM (#20929556)
> Yes? Why do you think we need things like minimum wage and OSHA? Because there are desperate people and people who exploit them.

Nobody is intentionally exploiting anybody; desperate people exploit themselves.

So the solution is either gatekeeping or rate limiting.

a) only allow people that meet a minimum economic status to make money from the app.

b) limit the amount of money/time that can be spent on the app so it is clear the intent is not to provide full-benefits careers.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by hyperbovine on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:48AM (#20929498)
> So basically desperate people ruin everything?

What a perfect distillation of the empathy-deficient and contemptuous attitude that a large fraction of rich, fortunate techies have towards everyone else. Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by SilasX on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @03:43PM (#20943884)
That was the trick: the "app" the GP describes already exists! It's called the deposit system on recyclables, and somehow, governments never consider promoting such full time redeemers into employees!

Do you think governments should turn away all such recyclables that the homeless bring in on the grounds that they're not making a living wage? If not, you see the legit problem the GP described.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by wozniacki on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:14PM (#20929820)
Let's not infantilize these poor and "desperate" drivers who don't know any better than to be exploited by the technocrats.

They were doing no better illegally sub-contracting with illegal sub-lessees of taxi medallions who themselves illegally forked out hundreds of thousands of dollars to wealthy medallion owners who hoarded them and prevented anyone else from legally procuring them.

The previous taxi system ( prior to the arrival of ride-hailing apps ) was thoroughly corrupt at every level. I hope thats not up for debate.

Immigrant new-arrival drivers would pay daily fixed amounts to illegally "lease" these cabs (on the daily) to those at the bottom of the chain of operators described above.

They were already "part-time" (well before the arrival of Uber and Lyft) and weren't afforded many of the protections the medallion issuing body put in place.

It was a thoroughly corrupt sham that the governing bodies paid little attention to and hand waived the illegal practices because they were (and are) themselves corrupt rent-seekers who were in bed with those interests they truly protected.

The officials knew it.

The medallion owners knew it.

The sub-vendors knew it.

The immigrant daily-wage-slaves knew it.

This is why Uber, Lyft and others were such life savers when they arrived. Everyone hated taxi cabs.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by privateSFacct on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @03:41PM (#20932698)
The CC machine was always broken. Wildly under insured (despite the regulation!) No service in tough neighborhoods late at night when you needed them. Would drive while yelling on the phone. Despite the fares shown (very high) the guys driving looked totally broke. NO WAY were they actually getting the $$.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by tracer4201 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:10PM (#20929763)
You cherry picked a part of OPs post. The rest of it is a reasonable argument. You can refute it or otherwise you’re clinging to an emotional argument and not rational one.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by alistairSH on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:37AM (#20928696)
Say I use Uber to take advantage of HOV lanes going to and from work

Slugging might be an option.[1] Doesn't help with additional income, or work very well for suburb-to-suburb commutes, but at least in DC, it's a very popular option, especially coming from the south on the I-95 corridor.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by lozaning on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:16PM (#20929835)
There's also scoop, which is explicitly for this kind of activity. You define your route to and from work and then it matches you to people who are going the same place at the same time as you.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by candu on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:02PM (#20930427)
It's almost as though...we as a society continually assess whether the harm from some activity exceeds benefit, and react accordingly?

Or maybe we're starting to expect that people building things have responsibility to foresee potential harms arising from their use, whether or not part of the intended use case, and to build in an equitable way?

After all, if "inadvertently deepens abject poverty" is a possible outcome of a tool you're building, maybe the problem is with the design and not the people using it.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @02:01PM (#20931188)
I'm pretty sure actually, uniformly enforcing all of the currently existing labor laws would 'inadvertently deepen abject poverty' too. There are a lot of people working black or gray market jobs (i.e. workers for whom the 'employment' relationship is itself illegal, at least in some aspects) already.

There are tens of millions of people in the U.S. that are not legally permitted to reside here, let alone work. Are you also in favor of actually enforcing those laws and either preventing them from working or deporting them?

> It's almost as though...we as a society continually assess whether the harm from some activity exceeds benefit, and react accordingly?

I do not think that U.S. society, or any country really, could be even approximately described like this, accurately. As just one example, minimum wage laws were originally introduced to prevent minorities (e.g. black people) from undercutting the wages of ethnic-majority workers (i.e. 'white' people). As another, a large number of U.S. states require certification or licensing for people to cut or style other's hair. I am extremely skeptical that such laws or regulations were enacted because a fair cost-benefit analysis implied that such were reasonable.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by cdmcmahon on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:49AM (#20929506)
> Say I use Uber to take advantage of HOV lanes going to and from work (and make a little extra cash)

No one does this. This argument exists in a fantasy land.

[dead]
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by pnutjam on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:12PM (#20930559)
So you do this, but don't even use Uber to do it.. Hmmmm...
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by tracer4201 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @09:54PM (#20935836)
I don’t have a car and don’t drive. My post shared what drivers have always told me over the past couple years. If you’re willing to drive for Scoop, you can also drive for Uber or other ride service.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by olyjohn on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:42PM (#20930937)
Then why are you not doing it every day and recouping your costs? Seems kind of stupid to me that you're flushing money down the toilet if it's such an easy thing to do with Uber.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by tracer4201 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @07:35PM (#20935037)
I’m not doing it at all because I don’t have a car - I only ride using this app.

Picking up someone on your way to work could be ideal or a challenge if you need to get to work early. I’m not sure what your point is - it should have zero opportunity cost or it’s a bad deal? Does your current job have any opportunity cost?

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:43PM (#20930955)
> So basically desperate people ruin everything?

This is due to people (non-consciously or not-explicitly) holding or believing something like 'The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics'.

In a nutshell, it's often better to ignore a problem than attempt to improve it in any way less than perfect, at least in terms of other third parties' reactions.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by lozaning on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:09PM (#20929749)
Im pretty sure if you made an app that would pay people a dime for every piece of trash they picked up, Delhi would just have even more cobras.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by umvi on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:15PM (#20929827)
Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of Italki. The app would just be for escrow and connecting people.

Someone posts a trash bounty for their neighborhood. Another person accepts the bounty. They exchange messages, the acceptance criteria is agreed upon, and the transaction is completed after the bounty poster has verified the trash is gone.

I think such an app would work great for cleaning up public places, but would break down as soon as people started tried to turn it into a career.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by pnutjam on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @12:33PM (#20930024)
Who do you imagine is doing these jobs? It's people who need money.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:26AM (#20928555)
A healthy society is more important than clever technocrats.
Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by dev_dull on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:32AM (#20928639)
This is the mantra of all government regulation (which is really just a legislated grab at power):

“I know it’s bad for you, but it will be better for others. And because we think that’s more important, you have no choice.”

An objectively free society is always better than your subjectively “healthy” society.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by nosianu on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:42AM (#20928754)
The only "free" society is you alone in a large area. In any other place, with other humans nearby, you will not be "free". And this definition of "Freedom" only looks at the impact from other humans, totally ignoring the restrictions the world itself imposes on you (but to human psychology those don't matter nearly as much as the will of other people imposed on yourself).

This sounds cliche, and it is, but for whatever reason I feel kind of forced to reemphasize the obvious in response to your self-centered-universe-outlook comment.

In a human society, the alternative to government is rule of the strongest. That's how we got nobles and kings, later the great capitalist tycoons and their private police and armies.

> An objectively free society

That does not mean anything. Well, it means you are trying to shove your world-view down everybody else's throat while shutting out any discussion and arguments that you dislike.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by Andhurati on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:02AM (#20928969)
>In a human society, the alternative to government is rule of the strongest. That's how we got nobles and kings, later the great capitalist tycoons and their private police and armies

If you feel that that's the case then you must realize that what stopped this status quoue wasn't legislation but industrialization and guns. Legislation is always after the fact.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by gamblor956 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:33AM (#20929326)
Guns were around for a few hundred years before this alleged democratizing effect.

Also, of note, is that guns were invented in China thousands of years ago and it has been a monarchy or dictatorship since then.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by Andhurati on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:45PM (#20930974)
Steam engines have been around since the 1st century, but like guns, they weren't going to be as important as they could be without all the advancements in ideology, planning and sciences that resulted in industrialization.

Which brings me back to my point, the current status of civilization is due much less to legislation than people say it is.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by gamblor956 on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @03:42PM (#20932717)
If you specifically mean the existence of an elected group of people writing the laws matters less than people say it does, we agree.

But if you say that the systematic codification of rules (i.e., laws) matters less than people say it does, we disagree completely. Laws literally defined every major civilization back to the dawn of recorded human history.

For more modern examples, CA's employee rights laws are the reason that SV happened in SV rather than New York, Boston, Chicago, or Detroit--all cities with larger scientific and industrial bases than SF or LA. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act literally made the internet as it exists today possible; without it Youtube, Twitch, Facebook, Twitter, and even Amazon and Google couldn't exist as they do today.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by r00fus on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:43AM (#20929430)
Hmm - or phrased more accurately, your group's (aggregated) choice is less valuable than others' (aggregated) choice.

How many people do you think go through the process of signing up for Uber simply to arbitrage the 5-10 minutes gained on HOV lanes?

Compare vs. Uber/Lyfts actual use case - to displace taxis and public transport while under-paying it's drivers.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by CJefferson on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @11:53AM (#20929573)
How free do you want?

Free enough I can employ anyone at any wage, to do any job?

Free enough I can employ children and send them down mines?

Free enough I can just come around and take your house?

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by KirinDave on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:22PM (#20930697)
> "I know it’s bad for you, but it will be better for others. And because we think that’s more important, you have no choice.”

If you don't like this logic, why do you support the OPs use of the inverse proposition:

"I know it’s bad for all of you, but it will be better for me. And because I think that’s more important, I'd like everyone to agree without directly justifying it.”

Even if you believe in a society of objective freedom, there are multiple senses of freedom. There are "freedoms from" as well as "freedoms to", and you seem to be carefully and convexly limiting the definition of "objectively free society" fits exactly cognitive cognitive volume you want, without regard to how other people might define that concept.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by dev_dull on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:30PM (#20930786)
> If you don't like this logic, why do you support the OPs use of the inverse proposition:

It's really simple, because the inverse doesn't involve legislation, where an individual is forced to do something at risk of life and limb.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by KirinDave on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @01:37PM (#20930873)
But importantly it relies on legislation. It relies on the existence of very specific market conditions that are held in place by the state. It then supposes that these artificial conditions we cal the workplace shouldn't change if they impact the author, who is rich, to benefit the "desperate" (a larger and poorer cohort of people, I read from the OP's post).

Legislation is there either way. It is involved in each case. And as employment (often dangerous) is required for living in the US, it seems pretty weird to view this structural change that only mildly inconvenienced some of the most egregious users of the very broad "contractor" status in existing law, I can't quite work out why this is important.

Re:California Labor Bill, Near Passage, Is Blow to Uber and ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday September 10, 2019 @10:36AM (#20928675)
You vote, I vote, we all vote, and whatever policy wins becomes the law. And it looks like this is going to become law. The people have spoken.

If one takes issue, plenty of other states to choose from to better experience one’s personal idea of “freedom”.