News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
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Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by TeMPOraL on Saturday August 31, 2019 @06:32AM (#20845549)
These programs are then broken, IMO. A non-filesystem-tool program shouldn't break the filesystem abstraction for no good reason. Being able to symlink configs or binaries is an important feature.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by goblin89 on Saturday August 31, 2019 @06:45AM (#20845576)
Symlinking configuration files is the approach behind GNU stow. I version my dotfiles in a repository, and on a new system it’s enough to simply run:

  cd ~
  git clone <dotfiles repo>
  cd <dotfiles repo>
  stow <profile|vim|ansible|bin|...>
Every piece of software I use plays well with it. If I were using Dropbox, the announced change wouldn’t break my workflow.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by dmurray on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:03AM (#20845808)
Shouldn't this be configurable at the OS level? If you don't want programs to be able to treat symlinked files differently from "real" files, then don't expose an is_this_a_symlink() API, or at least have the system configurable so this always returns false for certain callers.

It seems wrong to say a program is broken when it's using the OS-provided API in the documented way.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by Dylan16807 on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:29AM (#20845911)
That's a lot of work for what's still only a partial solution. Some symlinks inside Dropbox should get synced as symlinks. But for these use cases, some shouldn't.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by y0y on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:32AM (#20845712)
Sounds like that should apply to Dropbox, as well.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by theaino on Saturday August 31, 2019 @10:24AM (#20846434)
No, because Dropbox is a file syncing utility so symlinks, which are special files that point to other files, should be synced as symlinks. Replacing the symlink with the target file or directory is obviously broken behavior.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by zimpenfish on Saturday August 31, 2019 @10:37AM (#20846524)
> symlinks, which are special files that point to other files, should be synced as symlinks

How would that work on, e.g., the iOS client? Or a Windows client, even?

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by TeMPOraL on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:39AM (#20845738)
Syncing tools are tricky because they bridge and overlap (at least) two filesystems - local and remote. It's not obvious how to handle symlinks there in general case. The default behavior dictated by filesystem abstraction is wrong (would duplicate files and break links). There are multiple other ways to handle it, but it's not clear what's best.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by cowsandmilk on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:56AM (#20845788)
Explain what was wrong with Dropbox’s previous behavior (which is described in the link).
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by Dylan16807 on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:08AM (#20845829)
"would duplicate files and break links"

And did the previous behavior preserve symlinks that are located inside a folder in Dropbox and link to somewhere else inside the same folder? Because a symlink-blind program would screw that up royally.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by michaelmrose on Saturday August 31, 2019 @01:54PM (#20847766)
I don't run suckless software because their software is simple to the point of not actually having the features I need.

Do you really care if the developer of a packages morals line up with yours? I care if they are going to compromise my computer. I can if it works. I don't give a damn if they are a nice person.

Apt/gem/npm/pacman/pip installing a package doesn't materially support the developer. Nobody pays them a nickle for every install and I'm not going to start vetting the ethics of the authors of the 2400 packages installed on this machine anytime real soon.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by codetrotter on Saturday August 31, 2019 @01:55PM (#20847770)
> Also, you might want to avoid using suckless software: https://twitter.com/kuschku/status/1156488420413362177

This had me confused for a moment, but then I realized that you probably thought st was referring to https://st.suckless.org/

Don’t worry, it’s not.

st on my systems is an alias for git status.

https://github.com/ctsrc/shell-command-aliases/blob/master/b...

Even so, I think that twitter thread is somewhat confusing because they draw parallels between walking with torches and nazism (?)

In my country, torches are often used in peaceful protests against racism.

I dunno.

But the email thread that was linked to seemed to be nazi apologetic for sure. So I guess if one was to consider using their software one should perhaps look more into what kind of things the people involved in that project stand for exactly.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by kuschku on Saturday August 31, 2019 @03:45PM (#20848409)
> Even so, I think that twitter thread is somewhat confusing because they draw parallels between walking with torches and nazism (?)

> In my country, torches are often used in peaceful protests against racism.

They were doing torch marches in the same places where the nazis (like, literally Hitler's party in the 1930s) were doing their famous torch marches.

That's hard to justify as anti-racism protest while also using hostnames based on Hitler's residences.

> st on my systems is an alias for git status.

Ah, that's an interesting shortcut.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by codetrotter on Saturday August 31, 2019 @04:14PM (#20848558)
> They were doing torch marches in the same places where the nazis (like, literally Hitler's party in the 1930s) were doing their famous torch marches.

In that case I agree with you, that is a rather clear expression of nazi sympathies on the part of the people that would do that.

>> st on my systems is an alias for git status.

> Ah, that's an interesting shortcut.

You might be interested in my other git shortcuts also. This README has all the details you need about them:

https://github.com/ctsrc/shell-command-aliases/blob/master/R...

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday August 31, 2019 @11:42AM (#20846941)
> Also, you might want to avoid using suckless software: https://twitter.com/kuschku/status/1156488420413362177

What, because some involved people did things that might be objectionable in a way that doesn't affect their code? Why should I care?

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by Marsymars on Saturday August 31, 2019 @01:15PM (#20847539)
It's a boycott. Maybe you don't want to participate in this particular one, but the concept of boycotts isn't especially novel or unreasonable.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by zcid on Saturday August 31, 2019 @01:15PM (#20847542)
Their programs are simple and works well at the job for which they are intended. Why should I not use good software just because the developers' politics are not in vogue?
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by kuschku on Saturday August 31, 2019 @01:35PM (#20847658)
A part of open source is the ability to make changes if you dislike something, or something is broken/missing.

In this case, submitting code changes to a project like suckless might be not such a good idea, as you might not be welcome.

And as a result, you might want to avoid such projects.

(Also, referring to literal nazi symbolics as "not in vogue" is quite concerning)

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:10AM (#20845633)
> Also, you might want to avoid using suckless software: https://twitter.com/kuschku/status/1156488420413362177

Are you really suggesting that one should audit their use of open source tools regarding the political correctness of the free time activities of its developers?

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by kuschku on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:20AM (#20845665)
That’s not their free time activities, that’s an official suckless conference doing a torch hike, official suckless.org mails originating from a host using a nazi reference (wolfsschanze, hitler’s summer residence) as hostname.

On the social media site screenshotted, users can choose whether to post personally, or enable for a certain post an official title. The user posting the "cultural marxism" post manually, explicitly, and intentionally enabled the "suckless.org developer" title for that post, making it an official statement of the project.

That’s not free time activities, and naming systems after hitler’s residences and making torchhikes in historic locations isn’t about "political correctness" anymore.

I’m also not suggesting one should audit all their software, but it’s good to know about what kind of software one is running.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by reitanqild on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:39AM (#20845739)
Agree very much.

I'm normally very much against enforced political correctness but this seems to be way beyond that.

I hate nazism. I'm not particularly happy with people calling other nazis that aren't either[0], but unless there is some serious amounts of missing context this seems to be glorification of nazism.

[0]: for a starter the obvious implications of crying wolf when there is no wolf.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:26AM (#20845693)
> That’s not their free time activities

It is. It is open source. Just because it's public doesn't make it non free time.

> I’m also not suggesting one should audit all their software, but it’s good to know about what kind of software one is running.

How does all this impact the software? Did this "kind of software" get "infected" by the views of its authors? How?

I used to think that the good thing about open source software is that the result is neutral and open for anyone to inspect, improve and use.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by kuschku on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:31AM (#20845706)
> It is. It is open source. Just because it's public doesn't make it non free time.

How is an official conference organized by the project itself "free time" and not related to the project?

> How does all this impact the software? Did this "kind of software" get "infected" by the views of its authors? How?

Open source is also about open community. With a project like suckless, I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable contributing to it, opening issues, or trying to submit pull requests, because I wouldn’t feel welcome in their community.

In an open source community, where many of us would end up trying to give back, that’s a major factor in whether to use such a project.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:38AM (#20845731)
> How is an official conference organized by the project itself "free time" and not related to the project?

I'm not saying that it is not related to the project. I'm saying that they are conducting the project in their free time.

> Open source is also about open community.

If you see how different people talk about their "tech stacks" (i.e. talk to a node module maintainer and a kernel hacker and you'll see the differences), it is a misconception that there is "one" open source community. Luckily, there are many.

> I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable contributing to it

Then don't. It would even understand if you'd advise people to avoid such conferences. But advising people, i.e. non involved end users, not to use the software is a bit far.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by Dylan16807 on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:12AM (#20845844)
> it is a misconception that there is "one" open source community. Luckily, there are many.

Yeah, that's the point. That the community around this particular software has a rotten core.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by kuschku on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:42AM (#20845747)
The whole point of using free software — as you said yourself — is the ability to inspect and improve it.

If improving that software is not possible in the same way as with other projects, which it is with suckless for some kind of people, then using the software is impacted by that.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by frereubu on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:25AM (#20845686)
Bit surprising that as a German you'd regard antipathy for Nazi tropes as "political correctness".
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @07:32AM (#20845710)
> Bit surprising that as a German you'd regard antipathy for Nazi tropes as "political correctness".

It is surprising to me that one suggests to choose software on the political views of the authors and not on technical considerations.

This has nothing to do with me being German nor did I support or endorse those (admittedly strange) views. All I'm saying is that it has nothing to do with their software.

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by rocha on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:28AM (#20845904)
It is not that surprising if you try to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Would you feel comfortable using and contributing to their project if you belonged to one of the groups they appear to despise?
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:35AM (#20845933)
To be honest, for 99.99% of all the software I am using, I don't even know who authored/produced it. The same for other every-day products I use and/or consume.

Actively contributing or joining a group would be an indication that you share views with them.

But having installed a piece of software maybe through a package manager? Simply using it?

Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by rocha on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:49AM (#20845982)
I agree. I think it is unrealistic to check the "political correctness" of everything you use. But in this case, because of their own advocacy, you know now where they stand. In my case, I would prefer to not get involved, and avoid if possible, to use their project.
Re:Dropbox no longer follows symlinks to items outside of yo... by sebst on Saturday August 31, 2019 @08:51AM (#20845995)
> I agree. I think it is unrealistic to check the "political correctness" of everything you use.

That was my whole point.

Also, for the rest, I totally agree with you.