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Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by klez on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:18AM (#20792546)
There are reasons the draft can be a good idea.

When the military is only voluntary you get a military with specific ideas about foreign policy and how you see the enemy, whoever they are.

If you introduce the draft you have a more heterogenous military.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by zarkov99 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:54AM (#20792698)
Absolutely. A draft would also force Americans of all backgrounds to interact with each other in an environment that builds cohesion. It would also give even the most powerful of Americans skin in the game when it comes to starting wars.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by lostlogin on Sunday August 25, 2019 @04:00PM (#20795149)
> A draft would also force Americans of all backgrounds to interact with each other in an environment that builds cohesion.

Every American presidential election has a side show about the candidates military record and a meaningful number appear to have dodged their service - current president included.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by gonzo41 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:35AM (#20792875)
This only works if there isn't an out for folk with bone spurs.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by zarkov99 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:39AM (#20793228)
How widespread were those sort of shenanigans back when the draft was on, do you know?
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by pintxo on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:57AM (#20793335)
Wasn’t the last president who has served bush senior? This would mean it‘s rather common in some circles.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by pmiller2 on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:01AM (#20797755)
Barack Obama wasn’t old enough to serve in Vietnam, so he wouldn’t have needed to dodge serving. In about 20 years, provided the draft doesn’t get reinstated, we’re likely to have more presidents who never served.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by Nasrudith on Monday August 26, 2019 @09:23PM (#20805454)
Seriously what is with people thinking the draft will somehow be a great unifer or that it is an appropriate propagator of values? Veterans were lynched for wearing their uniform. The Kennedys lost family in wars and yet JFK started the Vietnam war.

I think we should just accept that the hypocritical institution is dead after Vietnam and stop trying to use it for power fantasies over society or advocacy - its only function is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as it makes reasonable ideas grossly unreasonable.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by wait-a-minute on Monday August 26, 2019 @11:29AM (#20800639)
Or we could, you know, just go to school and work and interact with one another the way we already do. Rather than trying to force people to give up years of their short lives via a draft.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by zarkov99 on Monday August 26, 2019 @12:36PM (#20801225)
Which school? Do you think the inner city kid goes to school with the Palo Alto kid? The Appalachian kid? The son of illegal alliens? We live in bubbles and we wonder why we can't make sense of each others realities.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by cafard on Monday August 26, 2019 @09:06AM (#20799538)
A draft cannot be made practical and fair unless you are going to have an Army of 1945 proportions. Otherwise, you might need one in ten draft-age men, and the business of choosing which becomes even more open to manipulation.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by zarkov99 on Monday August 26, 2019 @10:41AM (#20800248)
You do not think a truly random selection process could be implemented with integrity?
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by spodek on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:59AM (#20792991)
I propose a civilian service academy and civilian service, which would achieve most of a draft's goals without the military. American infrastructure could use it, among other benefits.

I talk about it in episode 138 in my podcast: http://joshuaspodek.com/guests/rants-raves-monologues-volume....

General McChrystal wrote about it in Time Magazine: Every American Should Serve For One Year https://time.com/4824366/year-national-service-americorps-pe...

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by neetfreek on Sunday August 25, 2019 @04:54PM (#20795510)
This is what we have in Finland; basically either: 1. Military service ranging from half a year to a year. 2. Civil service for a year. 3. Half a year prison sentence. 4. Exemption for medical reasons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Finland

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by Nasrudith on Monday August 26, 2019 @09:29PM (#20805496)
That is oxymoronic - the purpose of the draft is to have military warm bodies without having to pay or get volunteers.

Infastructure work's limitations are based on funding and skilled labor - not a mass of gruntwork.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by colek42 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:45AM (#20792646)
What specific kind of military do you get? The US military I was a part of was the most diverse group of men and women I have ever worked with in just any metric you can find.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by tomrod on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:55AM (#20792699)
I believe parent commentator was making a claim to lack of philosophical diversity, and that a voluntary military is more prone to prefer war over diplomacy.

I see the margin the parent commentator is trying to make, but feel it misses people who join the military to obtain gainful employment, get education, or numerous other reasons.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by trentnix on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:27AM (#20792825)
The issue you identify is a good reason why our system of government, which places an elected, term-limited civilian as the commander of the military, is extremely clever. We end up with an effective military, but have a counterbalance to a military acting as a hammer constantly looking for nails.

The people involved are certainly imperfect (and some are more imperfect than others), but we're always just a few years away from a course correction if the electorate sees fit.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by goatinaboat on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:29AM (#20792833)
a voluntary military is more prone to prefer war over diplomacy.

The military gets no say - wars are declared, or not, by elected politicians. What you say is only true in countries where the military runs the government.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by pintxo on Sunday August 25, 2019 @11:02AM (#20793361)
I never saw it as „the military“ being more prone. But rather the general public. As in a voluntary military, they (their families) are likely not involved with the military personally. While having the draft ensures most everyone will be - on a family level - impacted by a war or peace decision.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by naasking on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:35AM (#20792871)
Military officers advise politicians. It seems silly to believe they have zero sway over political opinions.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by klez on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:12AM (#20792769)
> but feel it misses people who join the military to obtain gainful employment, get education, or numerous other reasons.

You're right. But I wonder what kind of "politics" they would adopt when needed if they didn't feel the rest of the army has one way of thinking.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by naasking on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:33AM (#20792855)
Diverse on many metrics I'm sure, except probably economic class.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by goatinaboat on Sunday August 25, 2019 @02:52PM (#20794744)
Western militaries for hundreds of years have been working class soldiers and upper or at least upper-middle class officers. The middle-middle class is very underrepresented. This is true even today.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by naasking on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:50PM (#20796902)
Is there a survey or study of the demographics? I'm genuinely curious about how it currently looks because I have a hard time believing the upper crust bothers with this sort of thing any more. Service just doesn't seem to carry the social weight it once did, and there are plenty of stories of rich kids dodging deployments and the like.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by civilian on Monday August 26, 2019 @08:04AM (#20799095)
Based on the data here, the grandparent is wrong. Maybe they were historically correct, but today the three middle quintiles of economic class is over-represented https://www.cfr.org/article/demographics-us-military (Look for the graph titled "Neighborhood affluence for 2016 recruits")
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by soniman on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:23AM (#20792561)
A draft raises the cost of war, making war less likely.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by Retric on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:27AM (#20792578)
That depends on how easy it is to get out if it.

If the influential always go to the coast guard or whatever, war is less meaningful for those in power.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by zbsisbd on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:41AM (#20792631)
“That depends on how easy it is to get out if it.”

Exactly. That’s why I despise ppl whose connections got them out of the draft. For everyone of those punks, another one of McNamara's morons had to be drafted.

Mohamad Ali, on the other hand, he had the courage to go to jail.

Burn your draft card, escape to Canada, or simply refuse. But those who use university exemptions or bone spurs can go to hell.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by austhrow743 on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:23AM (#20797838)
Escaping to Canada increases the amount of McNamara's morons needed the same as a university exemption or bone spurs does.

The only difference between your methods is consequences for the person undertaking it, not those that have to replace them. You appear to want people avoiding being drafted to suffer. Pretty odd if you otherwise sympathise with them.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by gbacon on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:35AM (#20792870)
Even though Ali had the courage to go to jail, by your reasoning in the previous paragraph, someone else “had to” be drafted in his place.

Perhaps you won’t go so far as to call conscription kidnapping, but you seem to sympathize at least a bit with people having scruples over being shipped off involuntarily to wage aggressive war. Now, you may admit that some are principled objectors, and others may simply believe that dirty work is beneath them. The more important question is whether the draft is just. If so, then any refusal by the able is wrong, and if not, we may not condemn resistance in any peaceful form.

The reality of deferments for the politically connected and most especially those for the children and grandchildren of politicians who vote for war makes utter propaganda the notion that disinterested philosopher-kings or a technocratic elite are merely acting to promote the greatest good for the greatest number.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by gojomo on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:58AM (#20792712)
Does this argument back-test successfully?

Has the US suffered fewer war-fatalities in the era(s) where it had a draft (including the Civil War, WW1, WW2, & Vietnam), or in the era where it has an all-volunteer force (since 1973)?

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by pmiller2 on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:03AM (#20797765)
That’s almost impossible to compare due to advances in both weapons and protective equipment.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by gojomo on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:33AM (#20798438)
And yet, we have to try to make such comparisons to make such sweeping judgements as "a draft makes war less likely".

The quality of weapons and armor (and training and medical care!) also isn't independent of the draft/volunteer dimension. A all-volunteer-force may find it necessary to invest more in each, because fewer people will volunteer to be part of a military force that tries to win with raw & disposable strength-of-numbers.

So maybe the all-volunteer-force "raises the cost of war" even more, considering financial costs & second-order effects, and thus best deters war? It's possible, which is why such claims need to be evaluated against history, not just asserted.

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by soniman on Sunday August 25, 2019 @04:54PM (#20795514)
Probably not but a lot has changed.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by benj111 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:41AM (#20792633)
I'm not convinced.

Assuming you even recruit the officer class from draftees, you're going to recruit the ones that think like you, or at least that you respect, which in practice means they know someone you respect, were taught somewhere you respect, in short they're probably from the same circles as you.

Plus if you don't want to join the military, are you really going to give a toss about contributing?

Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by cptskippy on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:54AM (#20792696)
Yes that's all true at the bottom. The top is still career military and they very much set the culture, tone, and policy.
Re:Blame Economists for the Mess We’re In by klez on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:13AM (#20792773)
Yes, but they don't hold the rifle, in case it matters.