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Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by cryptoz on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:13PM (#20759825)
What is a "strong voter ID"? This sounds like voter disenfranchisement or a poll tax, or both (and both are unconstitutional). Voters are not required to have ID, nor should they be. Not everyone has an ID, and many states have specifically passed laws to make it more expensive and more difficult for some people to get government-issued photo ID.

Without a massive outreach program intended to reach all voters and supply them with convenient, free of charge voter IDs, and a system that can continuously and quickly resolve errors, such a "strong voter ID" would be unconstitutional (for good reason).

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by blackflame7000 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:29PM (#20760024)
Then we need to fix the problem of people not getting ID instead of using it as an excuse not to secure out elections
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by w0de on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:49PM (#20760947)
You're almost there. "Fixing" that problem - and you'll find many folks who don't want the federal government to have ID information for everyone - is not simple. In the meantime, multifarious ID laws will empower discrimination and disenfranchisement.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by blackflame7001 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:22PM (#20761279)
What about the disenfranchisement of citizens who's will is overrun by people not eligible to vote? Are you really trying to convince me that we should make our elections insecure because some people want to vote in federal election while simultaneously not wanting the federal government to have their ID. You do realize you have to register to vote right? Why should we all make our election insecure for people who don't even trust the government themselves?
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:25PM (#20761313)
Because its a free country, because a federal ID disenfranchises those who will find it difficult or impossible to get such an ID, because not trusting the government is the whole point of the US constitution.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by mikeash on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:36PM (#20760114)
It solves a problem that doesn’t exist in practice and is impossible to exploit at scale even in theory. It would be good, but it’s not terribly important.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by blackflame7001 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:19PM (#20761241)
"that doesn’t exist in practice"

It's ridiculous to assert that it doesn't exist in practice due to lack of evidence when in reality pretending to be someone else to vote leaves virtually no evidence. You can't even begin to analyze the problem so its laughable for you to assert such things.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:38PM (#20762114)
> It's ridiculous to assert that it doesn't exist in practice due to lack of evidence when in reality pretending to be someone else to vote leaves virtually no evidence.

If it's happening at any significant rate, without perfect knowledge of which eligible voters won't vote (or have someone else try to steal their vote, which is just as bad for the prospective vote thief), it leaves quite tangible evidence in the form of people presenting themselves to vote under names that have already voted.

The absence of this occurring fairly strongly indicates that vote stealing by impersonation isn't a thing that happens at any meaningful rate.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by blackflame7000 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:45PM (#20762170)
Or people are smart and only pick names of people who haven't voted in quite some time. 2 out of 3 people don't vote. If you have ever volunteered at a precinct you would know that it's literally just an excel sheet of names and you're supposed to check someone off. It's very easy to check the wrong line and your failsafe is easily explained away as a mistake instead of raising any sort of alarm. There is no one investigating that people actually voted.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @06:52PM (#20762786)
> Or people are smart and only pick names of people who haven't voted in quite some time.

If there was more than what vote theft operation in the same area, you'd still expect them to have collisions.

> 2 out of 3 people don't vote.

Wrong. A majority of the voting-eligible population votes in Presidential elections.

> If you have ever volunteered at a precinct you would know that it's literally just an excel sheet of names

A printed paper sheet, sure. Whether Excel is used in making it or not is immaterial (I assume it's generated straight from the voter database, which I hope isn't Excel.)

> and you're supposed to check someone off.

California state law requires the actual voter to sign in on the list; I would think that this is normal.

> It's very easy to check the wrong line

If it was a just a check off, maybe it would be easy.

> It's very easy to check the wrong line and your failsafe is easily explained away as a mistake instead of raising any sort of alarm.

Even if it was just a check box, you'd also need to have extremely lax procedures that all the poll workers and any observers were all in on for this basic integrity check to be routinely ignored.

Given the political factions interested in selling the idea of rampant voter fraud, you'd expect them to raise a ruckus if there were actual instances of this going on routinely.

You'd also have to either randomly mark off some non-voter (potentially creating a new instance of the problem) each time this happened or turn in a tally sheet where the count of marked voters didn't match the ballot count. The former would magnify the visibility of the casual disregard of integrity, the latter would definitely raise an alarm in counts.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by codedokode on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:34PM (#20763083)
If there is an observer in the polling station, how are you going to throw ballots in a box without them noticing? You need to find people who would pretend that they are voters. It only works when nobody is watching (when nobody cares).

Also, here in Russia, voters put a signature in the voters registry when receiving a ballot.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by mffnbs on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:34PM (#20762085)
I love this argument because it exposes that voter legitimacy is not based on any sort of logic or evidence, but based on feeling more secure about it.

It's especially ironic.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by mikeash on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:24PM (#20761295)
It leaves a record that the somebody else cast a vote. This would be noticed rapidly if the real person then showed up to vote and was prevented because an impersonator got there first. If that doesn’t happen, you can ask them if they voted. For people you can’t ask and know that they couldn’t have voted (for example, the record is stale and they’ve moved or died) then you know that any record of them voting must be an impersonator.

How often do any of these things actually happen? It’s all public record. The data is there for analysis. And yet nobody can point to more than a handful of examples.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by michaelmrose on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:37PM (#20760133)
It is disenfranchisement. It can cost almost a hundred dollars just for the IDs to be issued some places. If you have lost some identity documents you may need to request records from other places to substantiate name changes. That is to say marriage licenses and divorce decrees. Gathering this additional documentation may require another hundred bucks easy.

The common reply to this is that you need these documents anyway to work, to drive etc. This is true but ignores all the peripheral people you don't see. People whose roles in their family are support or who themselves are in need of support because of illness. Not all of them drive or work and they are citizens too.

It seems to me that the easier solution is to make public records free. Let the taxes you already pay serve to pay the salary of the peon at the printer. Then the people clamoring for us to check ID's to keep the "illegals" from voting can be happy and those people can be enfranchised.

[dead]
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by tomhoward on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:08PM (#20769590)
That list seems false in at least one case.

You don't need to show ID to vote at a polling place in Australia. And you don't need ID to enrol to vote.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by w0de on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:45PM (#20760900)
You're missing the point about IDs being incredibly easy to obtain. They are not in the US. Additionally, there's a long history of using voting requirements to disenfranchise voters.

I can't comment on the countries in the picture you've linked. I'll guess that most or all of them make it both easy and required to have a national ID card. That is not the case in the United States.

Consider a working class non-driver who has never travelled overseas. What is their ID?

Would you propose a new state or federal ID card? Great. How likely is it that the state or federal government will produce a system for issuing these that is easy to access, widely available, free, quick to issue IDs, etc? How likely do you think it is that politicians will attempt to modify the system for issuing these IDs so that their opponents' voters will find it more challenging to receive them?

If your answer is "likely" and "unlikely" respectively, you are naive to the history of voter disenfranchisement and vote-system-gaming in the United States. Much of it is based on race.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by EvilTerran on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:47PM (#20760917)
That list is wrong. I'm in the UK, we don't need ID to register or vote here.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by SlowRobotAhead on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:08PM (#20761143)
That's not exactly correct.

ID is required in some places like Northern Ireland. Iirc, the UK poll card isn't 'typically' or ID required in England, Whales, Scottland)

But as of 2018 that's changing when some districts required ID for the first time. Although last I heard, laws suits on that were still going on.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by EvilTerran on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:22PM (#20761274)
Very well. In the vast majority of the UK, you don't need ID. That checkmark on your list remains misleading at best.
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by michaelmrose on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:29PM (#20760726)
What is this supposed to prove?
Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by cryptoz on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:35PM (#20762091)
Your post is a logical fallacy - it assumes that other countries have the same history, laws, political structure and modern problems as the US does, which is a verifiably false assumption. Your list is also flat out wrong. Voters in Canada are not required to have ID.

Your list is also without sources and presenting an oversimplification of laws to the point of being presented in bad faith, with intentional misrepresentation of the original data. Your list is a lie of checkmarks, intended for propaganda and not to inform the reader.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:32AM (#20764649)
I didn’t say a single one of those things. You just made some big assumptions.

Tell me more about Canada, this implies you may be mistaken. https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&do...

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by cryptoz on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:53AM (#20764750)
I don't understand what you're saying at all. From your link, Option 3:

> Option 3: If you don't have ID

lays it out pretty clearly:

> You can still vote if you declare your identity and address in writing and have someone who knows you and who is assigned to your polling station vouch for you.

No ID needed, anywhere in Canada, ever, to vote. Period.

And I made no assumptions whatsoever in my post. It is your graphic that is full of false assumptions.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:25AM (#20768389)
That person needs ID to be assigned to their polling station to vouch for you. You’re being very stubborn.

Canada very effectively requires ID to vote, sorry that offends you.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by dang on Thursday August 22, 2019 @06:06PM (#20772831)
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, and please don't use HN primarily for political battle. We ban accounts that do those things.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by cryptoz on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:59AM (#20769515)
I really, really don't understand. Where did you get this information?? It is false - it is lies.

> That person needs ID to be assigned to their polling station to vouch for you.

That is absolutely not true. The site says,

> The voucher must be able to prove their identity and address. A person can vouch for only one person (except in long-term care institutions).

Nothing about ID. Just "prove their identity and address", which does not require ID.

> Canada very effectively requires ID to vote, sorry that offends you.

This is false. I am not offended by facts, or by your lies.

Canada does not require ID to vote. You are spreading lies by continuing to state that it does.

Have you ever lived there? Do you know anything about Canada from experience? You are lying and citing false information to claim falsehoods that are extremely dangerous.

Canada does not require ID to vote. Period.

Re:16M Americans will vote on hackable paperless machines by dang on Thursday August 22, 2019 @06:06PM (#20772834)
Please don't start posting like this again. We don't want to have to ban you again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html