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Re:The Population Bust by Causality1 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @08:50PM (#20701572)
This phenomena is why I'm strongly pro-immigration. Speaking as an American, I want there to be more Americans. We're not making them ourselves so we need to import. The more we import now, the better since the current population is both younger and more numerous than it will be in a few decades when we'd actually need the imported population. Doing it now means the Americanization of the immigrants will be more complete. We should bring them in and turn them American while we still have the numbers and dynamism to do so.
Re:The Population Bust by 0xfaded on Thursday August 15, 2019 @01:59AM (#20702954)
I'm Australian, have lived in the US, and now live in Denmark. I'm also pro immigration, both for skilled and unskilled workers. However Non-Western (as defined by the Danish Ministry of Statistics) has been financially costly for the welfare state, and the assumption that unskilled immigrant descendents will (as a whole) outperform their parents has not been realized.

There's blame on both sides. Denmark doesn't do a stellar job of integrating outsiders despite ample funding. Likewise there are cultural incompatibilities, such as the handshake-citizenship debacle in a country that has arguably the closest gender equality in the world.

My personal lesson is that immigration is really complicated. I truly believe people should be free to move wherever to realise their maximum potential. But in holding this standpoint you must acknowledge the very real costs incurred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to

Re:The Population Bust by Causality1 on Thursday August 15, 2019 @03:27AM (#20703284)
True, but I was primarily thinking of immigration from Western nations like Mexico and even Europe. It's surprisingly hard for, say, a British person to move permanently to the US. I'd like to see that changed.
Re:The Population Bust by em500 on Thursday August 15, 2019 @04:32AM (#20703540)
Every Western nation has sub-replacement fertility rate now. Mexico is still slightly above, but will likely go below in the coming decade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_Fertility_Rate,_195...

Re:The Population Bust by oska on Saturday August 17, 2019 @05:13AM (#20723004)
> I truly believe people should be free to move wherever to realise their maximum potential.

Why? Why not improve their local environment to better help them "realise their maximum potential"? (I put your words in quotes because it's not a phrasing I like very much).

Why create a world where people have to move to have better opportunities rather than creating a world where there are better opportunities in increasingly more places?

Re:The Population Bust by simplecomplex on Friday August 16, 2019 @10:24PM (#20721563)
By definition welfare is a net loss. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needed.

How can it be bad for immigrants to get more than they put in, but not citizens?

The “immigrants will get more out of welfare than they put in” is exactly how welfare is supposed to work!

Re:The Population Bust by kwhitefoot on Saturday August 17, 2019 @08:18AM (#20723640)
Welfare recipients spend every penny they receive so it contributes to the economy by keeping money moving.

It's not a zero sum game.

Re:The Population Bust by guerrilla on Friday August 16, 2019 @11:36PM (#20721840)
Many (most in some countries) immigrants are citizens, so I don't think that's the distinction you meant to make.
Re:The Population Bust by mandelbrotwurst on Thursday August 15, 2019 @01:40AM (#20702884)
Why do you want there to be more Americans? Is there some advantage to more people living in the geographical region?

Are you hoping that it will allow certain aspects of the culture to spread / persist?

If the latter, would it be as good to cultivate those things at home and allow them to spread on their own merit?

Or do you prefer for more people to exist under the national banner for its own sake?

Re:The Population Bust by Causality1 on Thursday August 15, 2019 @03:18AM (#20703253)
All of the above. More Americans puts us in a better position to compete against China and India, and we can't expect our technological superiority to give us an edge forever. My view is of course biased, but I sincerely believe the world would be a crueler place were Chinese culture and military power to replace American cultural popularity and military power.
Re:The Population Bust by theworld572 on Saturday August 17, 2019 @03:59AM (#20722811)
So I guess you want immigrants but not Chinese immigrants then? Otherwise they would bring their cruel culture to America?
Re:The Population Bust by ttugrq on Thursday August 15, 2019 @10:17AM (#20705402)
I'm an American and I want there to be enough nurses and orderlies in American nursing homes when the time comes that I need them.
Re:The Population Bust by lotsofpulp on Friday August 16, 2019 @08:37PM (#20721067)
I’d rather go quietly into the night when the time comes that I’m not self sufficient (via assisted suicide). Perhaps that’s wishful thinking, and I won’t have the mental fortitude at that time.
Re:The Population Bust by Noumenon72 on Saturday August 17, 2019 @11:59AM (#20724628)
Also likely, "culture of life" virtue signallers will prevent you from doing what's right for you by nudges that make suicide difficult, painful, and illegal. Part of your plan should be to support assisted suicide politically. For example, Neil Gorsuch wrote a book advocating against euthanasia, making him one of the worst Supreme Court picks I can imagine. https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8317.html
Re:The Population Bust by alfromspace on Thursday August 15, 2019 @03:52PM (#20708979)
No thanks. I don't want there to be more Americans, I want there to be a better quality of life for the Americans that exist now and their descendants.

I don't see how it figures that more people packed into the same territory competing for a dwindling pool of resources is good for my country, even if the hundreds of millions of newcomers are eventually "Americans". I support controlled immigration when it benefits our country, but immigration for the sake of growing our population seems monumentally foolish. Housing, education, and healthcare are already scarce resources - let's focus on how to build our country into a better place to live for the people who are already vested in the system. In before "they'll pay for our pensions!" - debunked, more like "we're already paying for their food, housing, clothing, education, healthcare, and children", at least when it comes to illegal immigrants.

Also, for the environmentally-conscious - people moving here, a high per-capita carbon emissions country, from low per-capita carbon emissions country, is contributing to climate change. It's very frustrating to see publications from Wapo, to Time, to NatGeo encouraging Americans to stop having children to fight climate change, while simultaneously supporting high levels of immigration that contribute very significantly to increasing our population.

Re:The Population Bust by Nyandalized on Thursday August 15, 2019 @07:12AM (#20704141)
Why are you not making them yourselves? If it's because of economics, it clearly indicates unsustainable growth. The only thing immigration would support is below-livable wages.
Re:The Population Bust by malandrew on Thursday August 15, 2019 @03:31AM (#20703302)
I'm strongly pro skilled immigration. Automation is going to leave a lot of unskilled people unemployed and that will lead to civil unrest.
Re:The Population Bust by BubRoss on Saturday August 17, 2019 @01:04AM (#20722198)
Automation is not new, it has been happening since the printing press, the cotton gin and the assembly line.
Re:The Population Bust by tonyedgecombe on Thursday August 15, 2019 @09:51AM (#20705174)
We should bring them in and turn them American while we still have the numbers and dynamism to do so.

Which implies American levels of consumption and environmental damage.

Re:The Population Bust by tathougies on Friday August 16, 2019 @08:41PM (#20721089)
Problem 1: who would want to come to a country where they can be indoctrinated not to have babies?

Problem 2: it is unethical for rich people to depend on the fertility and then parental obligations of poor people in order to produce new people who will then be taxed to pay for the sterile old rich person. That is asking someone else to do all your hard work for you for free.

Re:The Population Bust by fallingfrog on Friday August 16, 2019 @09:03PM (#20721205)
“..new people who will then be taxed to pay for the sterile old rich person. That is asking someone else to do all your hard work for you for free.“

Um do you live here? That is basically how the economy works.

Re:The Population Bust by guerrilla on Friday August 16, 2019 @11:38PM (#20721848)
One cannot conclude an "ought" from an "is" without further assumptions.
Re:The Population Bust by toasterlovin on Thursday August 15, 2019 @05:53AM (#20703877)
I’d prefer to reserve as much of the country for my own descendants as possible, thanks. That’s what this country is: territory that our ancestors have bestowed upon us so we can have a place to live. We should do the same for our descendants, instead of just giving it away to whoever wants it. The rest of the humans on this planet already have their own countries.
Re:The Population Bust by ttugrq on Thursday August 15, 2019 @10:11AM (#20705347)
Today's immigrants are the future other grandparents of your future grandchildren, or great grandparents of great grandchildren. If you doubt it, look a few generations back in your family tree.
Re:The Population Bust by toasterlovin on Thursday August 15, 2019 @10:27AM (#20705496)
Nobody needs immigrants to have ancestors for their descendants. However you slice it, immigration increases competition for the future citizens of this country.
Re:The Population Bust by 0wis on Thursday August 15, 2019 @11:01AM (#20705799)
I’d prefer to reserve as much of the planet to my own descendants. Immigrants may use more some infrastructure of your country but overpopulation surely use more the planet. By allowing immigration, you increase chances for immigrants to be more educated and therefore reduce the overall birth rate.
Re:The Population Bust by toasterlovin on Thursday August 15, 2019 @10:54PM (#20711748)
> By allowing immigration, you increase chances for immigrants to be more educated and therefore reduce the overall birth rate.

How do the people who immigrate here affect the behavior of people in the countries they left behind? Why would they not continue having too many children?

Re:The Population Bust by yesenadam on Thursday August 15, 2019 @11:03PM (#20711803)
>The rest of the humans on this planet already have their own countries.

Do you not see the historical irony? Your (presumably European) ancestors had their own countries too. So did the inhabitants of the Americas before white people arrived there from 'their own countries'.

Re:The Population Bust by billner on Saturday August 17, 2019 @03:12AM (#20722659)
I've never understood this argument. How long does a territory need to be occupied for before the natives of that area can call it "their country."

Every country has a starting point, the USA's is just more recent.

Re:The Population Bust by toasterlovin on Thursday August 15, 2019 @11:09PM (#20711832)
We can’t undo the past. And, actually, European and African settlement of the Americas is an event that argues in my favor. There would be a lot more Native Americans today if their ancestors had had the ability to maintain territorial integrity. We should not voluntarily resign our descendants to the same fate.
Re:The Population Bust by newvoiceoldphne on Thursday August 15, 2019 @11:50AM (#20706264)
I think we need to slow the pace of immigration, to preserve our culture.
Re:The Population Bust by BubRoss on Saturday August 17, 2019 @01:06AM (#20722207)
To preserve what 'culture' exactly? When you say 'our' who are you referring to?
Re:The Population Bust by billner on Saturday August 17, 2019 @03:21AM (#20722695)
Obviously he means the American culture and by our he means Americans. There's no denying that if immigration is high enough, and assimilation poor enough, culture will change very quickly. Not saying its the case in the US but it's simple to understand what he meant.
Re:The Population Bust by BubRoss on Saturday August 17, 2019 @08:13AM (#20723618)
You say that, but there are plenty of people with books and spots on TV that say the exact same things about 'culture' and they mean 'white' (and say it explicitly). It's a way for people to make an argument about something that doesn't need numbers or data, since immigrants rapidly become a net positive on the economy and commit less crime.
Re:The Population Bust by sambal on Thursday August 15, 2019 @01:03PM (#20707153)
You don’t have a culture if it doesn’t change, you have an ideology.
Re:The Population Bust by Yetanfou on Friday August 16, 2019 @07:19PM (#20720616)
...but if you import an ideology into your culture you'll end up with escalating conflict. The refusal to see this has created something more akin to a powder keg than a melting pot (to paraphrase the old moniker) which has the - already partly realised - potential for some serious destruction.
Re:The Population Bust by guerrilla on Friday August 16, 2019 @11:43PM (#20721862)
You realize all of the larger cultures on Earth are melting pots, right? Sweden, France and Germany each by themselves are cultural mutts, for example. To deny this is to deny history and archeology.
Re:The Population Bust by Yetanfou on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:39AM (#20755477)
The "melting pot" idea of multiculturalism has been proven to be inaccurate, a better term for the way things actually work is a "salad bowl" - just search on "melting pot or salad bowl" to read more on this subject.

The example of Sweden is indicative of what I tried to convey as it has made the "salad bowl" concept part of its constitution which states that the country should "actively promote the distinctive collective identities of national minorities and immigrants" ([1] gives some insight in how things came to be like the way they are in Sweden). In the space of a few decades the country went from being one of the most homogeneous on earth to a boiling kettle of contrasting and often clashing cultures to which the term "mutt" - a mixed breed which has characteristics of all its predecessors - is not applicable as the constituent cultures mostly hold to their own. It is at the interfaces between those cultures tensions arise, sometimes between native Swedes and immigrants but more so between different groups of immigrants.

[1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3366/j.ctt20q22fw.13 ("The Political Dynamics of Multiculturalism in Sweden")