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Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by ocdtrekkie on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:27PM (#20668840)
Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by Someone1234 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:37PM (#20668929)
It isn't caused by any specific humidity levels. While it is depositing water droplets on to the glass surface, that same water is normally suspended harmlessly in the air (it is effectively de-humidifying the air onto the cold windows).

It is caused by the glass's surface temperature being much lower than the air temperature inside the car. Humans are warm. The air we breath is warm. We're heating up the interior of the vehicle. When that warm air contacts the cold surface of the glass, the water droplets migrate from the air onto the surface.

In order to detect it you'd need to know the glass's surface temperature ideally in the middle (away from the car's body) and also know the interior temperature. The interior temp they already have. But figuring out the glass's temp is non-trivial. Infrared camera is the only thing I can imagine working (since a sensor wouldn't be transparent or wouldn't be replaced when the glass is) but that would likely give inaccurate readings due to the outside temperature.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by dantillberg on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:30PM (#20669257)
Yes, but could we maybe get a decent approximation of the windshield temperature from interior temperature, exterior temperature, and speed? Combined with interior/exterior humidity (maybe these gauges might be the expensive/finicky part of this project?), we could calculate a probability of window fogging.

It doesn't have to be perfect -- we can have it just turn on the defrost whenever the probability of window fogging is >10% or something.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by tonyarkles on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:28PM (#20669926)
Could glue/epoxy a sensor right behind the centre mirror I’d think. It’s far enough from the defroster vents that it wouldn’t heat up quickly from the hot air.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by IgorPartola on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:36PM (#20669658)
You could do one of two things. First, a heated windshield like I believe some Landrovers have. It’s about $5000 to replace, last I heard, but it works. Second, a double pane windshield like house windows or some motorcycle helmet face shields. These work 100% of the time, but would definitely be more expensive as well.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:19PM (#20669879)
Best car I had for window defrosting/demisting was a Ford Mondeo which had a fine-mesh heating element embedded. Super fast clearing. More expensive than regular glass but not $5000 by a long shot.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by toast0 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:45PM (#20670030)
I had a Honda Accord with a cracked radiator.... It defrosted right quick, but idling it after it warmed up was very ungood. After the radiator was replaced defrost went back to normal.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by hvidgaard on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:49AM (#20672777)
You can get it for most Fords. It's one of my favorite features, and any car maker that caters to the more northern people should have that option.

When it's sort of cold, but not "ice on the car" cold, it works great as defogging. Way faster than waiting for the car to heat up. When there is ice on the car, you turn on the heaters and within a minute or two you can simply use your wipers to clear the window of ice.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by rossdavidh on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:16PM (#20670197)
But, figuring out if visibility is good through the windshield is still manifestly a much easier problem to solve than self-driving cars.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by ocdtrekkie on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:37PM (#20669299)
It's not super accurate, but most cars these days also have outside temperature. Add a humidity sensor inside and outside, and we have temperature and humidity inside and outside the car, which should give us enough information for a basic microcontroller to approximate the temperature differential across the glass and whether or not fog (or frost) is likely.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by mlonkibjuyhv on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:47PM (#20669369)
I think knowing the temperatures and such amounts to predicting the foggy state. Detecting it could look much different. Visual observation is obvious. With purpose built glass, perhaps one could look at electrical properties on the inside of the windshield. Maybe changes in the reflectivity of the glass could be used. Maybe some refractive index shenanigans?
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by mattmcknight on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:22PM (#20669590)
This seems like a simpler route. Why not just a camera pointed at a test mark on the windshield that checks if it is visible through the glass?
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:54PM (#20670082)
Or simply look for reflectivity at an angle, like the recent HN story about the guy who implemented a touchscreen on his Macbook by adding a small mirror to the camera above the screen.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by dragonwriter on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:59PM (#20672047)
> In order to detect it you'd need to know the glass's surface temperature ideally in the middle (away from the car's body) and also know the interior temperature

Or, perhaps more simply, have an optical sensor that detects and reacts to the fogging itself sooner than a human would.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by aerodude on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:47PM (#20671552)
Wouldn't it be easier to point a camera at the windshield and detect a change in opacity? I would think that's a far easier problem to solve than, say, facial recognition.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:53PM (#20670071)
But figuring out the glass's temp is non-trivial.

Not really. Many windshields already have elements embedded in them like the ultra-thin wire used for the AM radio antenna. Sensing temperature via the resistance of a wire like that is about as trivial as it gets.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by jimmaswell on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:13PM (#20669840)
What if the glass had some small heating applied to it constantly?
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by hutzlibu on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:34AM (#20672711)
Complete waste of energy? Additional energy required for AC when it is hot?
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by liability on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:31PM (#20668871)
Because when the sensor goes screwy I don't want my car to start flipping shit like the defroster on when it's not needed? Because manual controls make such automation totally unnecessary? Because even if the automated system were designed to be "fail safe", the state that's 'safe' is actually context dependent, therefore manual controls will be necessary anyway?

It ain't broke, so stop trying to 'fix' it.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by ocdtrekkie on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:36PM (#20668913)
The problem is the current solution doesn't work. Because trying to perfect those settings manually while driving in near zero visibility is scary and dangerous. And nobody even knows the correct settings to use! There are YouTube videos testing whether cold or warm air is the fastest way to defrost and/or defog your window, because nobody knows or remembers.

I honestly don't remember and my solution is "try both for a little bit while maintaining control of the car".

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by jschwartzi on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:56PM (#20670092)
I just leave the defrost on when it's raining or cold regardless of whether my windshield is fogging. No need for an automated system and my windshield never fogs up.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by leetcrew on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:58PM (#20669056)
it's really not that complicated, you just have to understand why condensation is happening in the first place. it's always because the glass is colder than the moist air it is touching. there are two strategies to deal with this: either blow air with very low relative humidity over the glass, or fix the temperature differential itself. if you're using the "blow dry air" strategy, you always want to turn on AC and at least some heat, as this will create low relative humidity.

now in the winter you can sometimes do better than this by fixing the temperature differential itself. you can either lower the windows or cool the entire interior by blowing air with no heat. in reality, most people don't actually want to drive around in the winter with windows down or no heat, so the best tolerable option is usually to do as above: turn on AC and heat.

in the summer you can also get fogging on the outside of the windows. just use your wipers for this.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by baroffoos on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:40PM (#20671253)
>it's really not that complicated

After reading this I am still not sure which one to use. They seem to both work.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by hvidgaard on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:55AM (#20672804)
Both work, one is just faster than the other. The post you replied to seems to imply that cold air is better in the winter, but that is absolutely not my experience.

When I get in the car in the morning, the air is already cold. No amount of more cold air from the vents will clear that. What's making it fog up, is the moisture I'm exhaling. More cold air is not going to fix that unless I drive with all windows down. So the only reasonable option since AC don't work at low temperature, is waiting for the car to heat up.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by leetcrew on Monday August 12, 2019 @09:18AM (#20675117)
tl;dr of my post: turn on AC and blast hot air at the windshield. if that doesn't work in the winter, open your windows. if it doesn't work in the summer, it's because the fog is on the outside of the windshield; use your wipers.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by smolder on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:29PM (#20677704)
In my car there is a front window defrost button that turns on the a/c (to dehumidify) but also the heat. Dry warm air does the best to remove condensation.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by jackvalentine on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:40PM (#20671988)
Perfect the settings? I've never driven a modern car that can't do it perfectly well when you hit the demister button. You're well overthinking things.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by liability on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:45PM (#20668985)
Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before attempting to operate it; you owe that much to the rest of society. Don't ruin a car just because you are too lazy to work a damn knob.

(Warm dry air evaporates water that's condensing on cold surfaces. That's very far from rocket science.)

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by ocdtrekkie on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:33PM (#20669275)
One: I think we can discuss this without condescension for anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Two: You are making a false choice: Automatic settings need not replace manual ones. Essentially what we are talking about is a spot on the dial that says "auto" which you are free to not use, much like headlight controls on higher end cars.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by liability on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:03PM (#20670838)
In practice the introduction of high-tech options reduces the availability of the manual options as manufacturers seek to reduce costs. Touch screen AC controls don't supplement manual controls, they replace them. This leaves people without irrational infatuations with tech high and dry, hence why I'm annoyed at anybody who advocates for it. If you've been in the market for a new car recently you'd see what I mean. Considering the state of the automotive industry right now, I think my comment was gentle. The suggestion that defrosting windows should be a matter delegated to a computer because it's confusing made me roll my eyes so hard, I was nearly blinded.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by HeyLaughingBoy on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:06PM (#20671377)
But cars already have this. My 2014 Ford Edge has front/rear defrost/defog buttons and they work just fine. As "liability" said, the answer is warm, dry air which happily works for both the defrost and the defog requests.

Well, they worked fine, but my A/C just went out, so getting dehumidified air is a problem these days.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by jaclaz on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:05PM (#20669109)
>It ain't broke, so stop trying to 'fix' it.

Sure, but the marketing department had to fill a few blanks in the "bad weather options pack" (optional but casually installed on all cars in production that will be available in the next six-eight months) for a mere US$ 3,000:

1) self-learning wipers (using AI to set automatically an appropriate wiping speed, including economode, that only wipes the right side of the windscreen when you make a free turn on right at a traffic light)

2) intelligent defrost (computing the correct defrost temperature through analysis of real-time satellite heat maps)

3) heated and ventilated mats (that can dry your wet shoes and lower half of trousers independently from heating/confitioning settings)

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by z2 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:30PM (#20669640)
I hope you make an artistic statement and patent some of these awesome ideas. 1) for conversation starter purposes, and 2) so that we can make sure auto manufacturers never actually do this, or at least you get fabulously rich in the process...
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by reilly3000 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:12PM (#20669541)
Interesting this patent literally just expired today: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5412296
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by o-__-o on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:18PM (#20671166)
Expired in 2012, buddy.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by reilly3000 on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:47AM (#20672768)
oops, read that last line incorrectly, its more of a status than an event.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by logfromblammo on Monday August 12, 2019 @11:07AM (#20676064)
I'd rather have the AC system dehumidify outside air, then reheat it before blowing it on the inside of the windshield. Most car HVAC systems make AC and heat mutually exclusive.

Dry hot air to heat the windshield above the dew point avoids the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" choice of cold dry air to keep the inside from fogging up versus hot humid air to keep the outside from fogging up.

It's not a matter of temperature sensing on the windshield, but humidity sensing in the cabin air.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by mhandley on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:37PM (#20668927)
Automatics are great when they work. I do have automatic wipers, which usually work pretty well. Fortunately they didn't remove the manual controls though because I had a boat on the roof yesterday, and the rain sensor behind the rear-view mirror didn't really see as much rain as I did.

There is a max-demist button, which for me is the perfect automatic function - it says what I want, and lets the car get on with selecting max fan/heat/AC/flow to the demist vents. And I can find it with muscle memory when I need it.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by o-__-o on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:14PM (#20671145)
This is the Airbus v Boeing problem. There are two schools of thought, one being that you the operator can control all the settings including the ones necessary to avoid the fogging. There are others that do so automatically. So many times people would be aggravated that my a/c would turn on with the heat in my Audi. What they didn’t realize was how that prevented fogging of the windows which inevitably would happen a few min later. I noticed my current car also does this but it turns itself on after the heat has kicked in.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by mLuby on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:05PM (#20671636)
Automatic things are annoying IF the user isn't sure what is happening or why.

Heat randomly turns on -> human is confused, maybe uncomfortable, and might think the car is broken/haunted.

Heat randomly turns on, car displays "Preventing windshield fogging" -> human is thankful car is thinking ahead.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by macintux on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:27PM (#20671947)
Except that displaying unexpected content interrupts the driver’s attention and takes it way from where it needs to be.

It’s certainly not important enough to distract someone performing any delicate maneuver.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by hutzlibu on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:12AM (#20672618)
Thats why a good notification system comes in different levels. Like red and big for important messages, blue and small for information like "heating windshield".
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by eeZah7Ux on Monday August 12, 2019 @11:13AM (#20676126)
> This is the Airbus v Boeing problem

This is a false dichotomy.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by bmurphy1976 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:18PM (#20670210)
Why don't cars have 2 batteries? One for starting the car, and the other for all the crap that tends to kill the battery when you most need it?

Probably because it costs more money and nobody will pay for it. That's the best guess I have.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by _n_b_ on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:35PM (#20670307)
Some cars have do two batteries, one for start/stop and one for everything else. (For example, some Mercedes have these, Suzuki "mild hybrid" cars, etc.)
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by bmurphy1976 on Monday August 12, 2019 @04:11PM (#20679433)
I know about the Mercedes but did not know about the Suzuki. My main point though is that this is not a feature in your bog standard Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Ford Fusion. I think it should be, it's a huge safety and convenience feature. That it is not in your average car implies it's probably too expensive for the utility it offers the average person.

Personally I solved the problem by buying a lithium ion car starter for both of our cars. Works great, but I really would prefer the cars just had some redundancy built in.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by lb1lf on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:06PM (#20670507)
You just have to be picky when you choose cars; my twenty year old Land Cruiser came with twin batteries factory fitted - though rather than one for starting and one for all the thingamajigs, they went with two beefy ones in parallel - 2*105Ah makes sure it starts every time.

I have been contemplating using the second one as an auxiliary battery after installing a fridge in the boot, though. Basically a matter of fitting a voltage monitor and a hefty relay.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by gugagore on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:05PM (#20671882)
Two beefy ones in parallel don't really solve the problem. If you leave your 1-Amp (probably a gross underapproximation) headlights on over the course of ~200 hours, you'll deplete the battery.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by lb1lf on Monday August 12, 2019 @12:47AM (#20672501)
-It doesn't solve the problem (which is why I am considering splitting them now that I have added a ~1A consumer to the mix), but it does postpone the problem for long enough to (in most cases) ensure that you will realise your mistake before it causes you not to be able to start your car.

Leaving the headlights on (~10A) as you leave the car in the evening will still let you start it in the morning, for example.

Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by haser_au on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:25PM (#20671447)
It's an add-on you can choose for cars, if you want to. A lot of service vehicles in Australia have 2 batteries for this reason. 1 for the vehicle, the second for chargers (USB, DC, etc), routers, fridges, cameras, etc.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by bmurphy1976 on Monday August 12, 2019 @04:12PM (#20679444)
Not around here. I've never seen it offered for a non top of the line luxury vehicle.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by leetcrew on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:39PM (#20668948)
on the other hand, AC is one of the only electronic features that causes a meaningful hit to fuel economy (and available power, if you have a weak engine). I very much prefer to decide for myself when it turns on.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by IgorPartola on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:37PM (#20669667)
Your car likely already turns off the AC when you accelerate hard. Most of them do that.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by o-__-o on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:20PM (#20671174)
But not at cruise, which op was alluding to
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by jimmaswell on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:16PM (#20669858)
The difference is so minute that I don't see what the point could be.
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by lscotte on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:35PM (#20670991)
Some cars do that automatically - in which case there are tons of complaints about the car turning on the climate control automatically. This is something where you just can't win...
Re:US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls... by Shivetya on Monday August 12, 2019 @06:36AM (#20674156)
they do but people resort to hyperbole all the time to justify their hatred of touch screen interfaces or just interfaces they do not like.

there are bad touch screen systems and there are good ones. just as there are badly laid out physical controls and good ones.

even muscle memory works with touch screens, to say otherwise is just a lie. however the biggest oversight people tend to ignore is, how little they actually interact with controls of their car other than the turn signals and such. Most modern cars have full climate controls which does include humidity and such, many have automatic lights and wipers, and some go as far as doing the driving.

nineteen to twenty four buttons on steering wheel is just fine and intuitive to some just like the same number on a center console yet these same people will complain about the simplicity of a properly design touch UI and fewer physical buttons as being too complex.