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Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by Areading314 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @07:48PM (#20640436)
Economics, and social sciences, are still sciences. It's just not as clear cut as say, physics or mathematics. A lot of the interesting parts of economics are how to build models that accurately predict human behavior.

In aggregate, it sometimes makes sense to model participants as rational, but this is a very simplistic model that does not always apply. There are lots of economists studying how asymmetric information or irrational participants can cause market failure or other outcomes.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by mbesto on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:03PM (#20641484)
To me, economics being a "science" implies the use of the scientific method.

You cannot study economics in a vacuum...in other words you cannot conduct the "test" part of the scientific method, because the real world will always produce some other unknown imperfect variable that affects the theory.

This is why behavioral economics are so important. IMHO it's the first truly concerted attempt at isolating economics to its core science in a repeatable and testable form (albeit not perfect). For example - understanding things like anchoring, recency bias, nudging, etc.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by richardw on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:38PM (#20641635)
Supply and demand is more core than anchoring and it was certainly discovered earlier.

It's tested all the time.

Add tariff, demand drops. That's also economics and works well in 2019.

This stuff is now so obvious we've forgotten it and can now argue about whether economists can predict recessions.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by nradov on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:03AM (#20642432)
The usual "supply and demand" rule doesn't even work consistently. See Veblen goods for a counterexample.

So it's hard to see economics as a valid science. There are no consistent theories and exceptions to everything.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by klodolph on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:25AM (#20642520)
This is a misunderstanding of what “science” is. Your objection is that the theories of economics are not correct enough for it to be a science. How is this argument not also true of, say, chemistry? Every simple theory in chemistry has a number of exceptions, with a more complicated theory waiting in the wings, up to the limit of our understanding.

“Science” is not some kind of shorthand for “ultimate understanding of the world”. It is just a process for validating and understanding the limitations of theories.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:43AM (#20642606)
The difference is that basic chemistry is fundamentally reliable. Basic economics is hand-waving and just-so stories and "Yes, but..."

Absolutely no theory in economics passes even the most basic quantitative testing.

Really. That is an observable fact. It's not an opinion.

Empirical economics is barely even a thing, and even when it's a thing it's mostly nonsense, based on poor data and questionable methodologies.

https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/J7atYOViQO54PiBzSTdAYL/Empi...

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by pas on Thursday August 08, 2019 @05:09AM (#20642927)
Econ is a bit like medicine. You can not really brute force things. Even phase 3 clinical trials are just a very crude and low entropy source of data.

That does not mean there aren't theories, hypotheses, experiments (usually natural experiments, or small scale pop psychology demonstrations like the dollar auction), and so there is data and you can fit models.

And in economics the hard part is getting good quality data, knowing what to try to quantize, where to start. Some folks spend decades hunting for signal. And then we get priming, and turns out it was nothing. At the same time there's SBTC (skill-biased technological change) the theory describing what happens as automation progresses. But it takes a lot of work to correctly "apply" that theory, because the effects are complex, and you have to keep in mind what else can also affect your observables. (So confounders has to be managed.)

And in the end we get high quality insights, such as the David Autor paper (Why there are still jobs?).

And there are the long and even deeper dives like the "Why nations fail?" book, which talks about the problem of public choice economics (politics) and how to model good politics, how to measure, how to quantify, etc. It's naturally less dense than a paper, but the problem and the pondering is a very important part of science. (The hypothesis generation, the abductive reasoning part.)

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by sbdmmg on Thursday August 08, 2019 @08:44AM (#20643966)
Very thoughtful comment, thank you. Indeed the main difference between e.g. physics and economics (or medicine) is that in the former case one has the privilege of being able to experiment by toggling the parameters one at the time. And brute force things with experiments, as you write.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by pas on Thursday August 08, 2019 @01:53PM (#20646814)
And isotropy of the universe. Okay that only helps on the really large and really small scale But the fact that regular Newtonian physics works so well is because it's aggregated over so many particles, we are so far from the froth of the quantum world, that when designing a bridge, we can assume things, and those assumptions will be valid almost everywhere.

There's no need for correcting for local variations that are needed in econ. Or from a different perspective the fact that we have simple laws in physics, and chemistry, and engieering, is because we are only considering/using a _very_ limited part of the whole universe.

The classic CH4 + 2 O2 = CO2 + 2 H2O is a gross oversimplification, because there are a few dozen other things going on at the same time, and NASA/SpaceX/BlueOrigin has to consider those when they burn in an athmosphere. But since we rarely encounter these problems we don't often find ourselves lacking enough data to fit a better theory. (But of course that's what's happening in post standard model physics, or in cosmology, or in trying to design fusion plants, we are very early in magnetohydrodynamics, and even designing a better corrosion resistant material for use in molten salt reactors is a challenge.)

So, just as we have models for ant ecologies we have for economics of states/countries, but just as neuroscientists have trouble figuring out how exactly an ant works and when does what and where ants will go to forage next economists have trouble predicting when the next crash will happen. (See also bee hive collapse syndrome, we still don't know what causes it, yet there's a lot of hives and we could even do experiments with them easily.)

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by sbdmmg on Thursday August 08, 2019 @05:54AM (#20643077)
"In physics with 3 theories that can model 97% of the world. In economics you have 97 theories that can model 3% of the world."

I can't remember the source for this aphorism, but it resonates a lot with your comment :-)

[disclaimer: I'm a physicist]

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by klodolph on Thursday August 08, 2019 @04:03AM (#20642681)
What part of basic chemistry is fundamentally reliable? I would be interested in seeing an example; it would help me understand what your notion of “reliable” is. My personal experience is that there is lots of hand-waving in chemistry.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by orwin on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:11AM (#20643413)
> My personal experience

Well this the point. Personnal experience is flawed and unreliable. In my personnal experience, something that weight more should fall faster. This is not the case.

Which economic theory enuce clearly the subset of conditions required to be true and fit the refutability criterion? For chemistry: all of them.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by klodolph on Thursday August 08, 2019 @01:44PM (#20646720)
> For chemistry: all of them.

Humor me… can you give a more specific example? When I took chemistry classes I don’t remember learning a theory that was completely correct, but it has been a while.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by close04 on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:52AM (#20643620)
I think the distinction is between hard and soft sciences. Hard sciences like chemistry, physics, mathematics are very reliable. Barring some very special cases (where an explanation hasn't been found yet) identical conditions will produce identical results. So they're not only reproducible but you can use one to deduce the other.

Soft science like economics, psychology, sociology will have none of the 2: conditions vary, results vary, and even if you could ensure you start with absolutely identical conditions it's very implausible that the result won't be heavily influenced later on by random factors.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by orwin on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:07AM (#20643389)
I don't know about "Science", it's too broad, but a valid scientific theory must valid the "refutability" point, and not respond "this is an exception!" when this point is reached. How many scientific theories does Econ have is a much more interesting question than "is Econ a science?", at leat to me.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by mbesto on Thursday August 08, 2019 @09:18AM (#20644207)
> It's tested all the time.

That's not testing. That's just a real life interaction. You can't isolate the variables in supply & demand, so we can only theorize that supply & demand is universally true. If I mix copper and tin in a bowl, I will infinitely get bronze as a result. This can be tested again and again with no variation. I simply cannot reproduce people's behavior in a vacuum. We can only observe it in the real world and draw the conclusion. This goes for my comments about anchoring, etc. as well.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by oarabbus_ on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @07:57PM (#20640489)
Mathematics is not a science, and model building is not necessarily a science, either.

Additionally, a significant number of social scientists aren't scientists.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by Areading314 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:25PM (#20640672)
I mean... a social science is a science by definition, and making an argument successfully within those fields involves proving it via the same methods that are used in natural sciences. It's just not as easy to eliminate variables and come to clean "laws" as easily, as is possible in say chemistry or physics.

There is a lot of gray area, for example is medicine a science? Many treatments or diagnoses are based on probabilistic or empirical models -- that doesn't make them worthless.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by thedudeabides5 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:08PM (#20640923)
When the comments takes only three levels to get to "what is science?"
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by oarabbus_ on Thursday August 08, 2019 @01:13PM (#20646379)
>There is a lot of gray area, for example is medicine a science? Many treatments or diagnoses are based on probabilistic or empirical models -- that doesn't make them worthless.

Medicine is not generally considered a science.

And never was it implied that things that aren't science are worthless.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by havetocharge on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:47PM (#20641092)
Not sure why you're getting down voted. Economics is a science, full stop.
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Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by nineteen999 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:44PM (#20641657)
"Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists."

- John Kenneth Galbraith

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by jevgeni on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:11AM (#20642465)
Or mathematics.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by ivalm on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:50AM (#20642643)
I would argue mathematics isn't really a science, as it isn't outward looking to the world, rather it is a study of self-consistent rewriting rules. You can obtain any mathematical result without knowing anything about the universe (something also true for, lets say, analytic philosophy).
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by jevgeni on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:46AM (#20643590)
Sure, but then the distinction between science / not-science hasn't got that much value.

A not-science (math) is the most critical tool in the scientific toolbox, and hence contributed more to scientific progress than any isolated branch of science.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by ivalm on Thursday August 08, 2019 @11:23AM (#20645378)
Sure, natural languages also contributed "more to science" than "any isolated branch" but learning a language (for its use rather than linguistics/anthropology) isnt a science. I think it is a useful distinction.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday August 08, 2019 @04:57AM (#20642878)
Yeah. My personal theory is that mathematics is a language, which happens to be useful in the description of scientific phenomena.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by orwin on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:14AM (#20643421)
Are group and ring theory not a science, or are they not mathematics?
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by mochomocha on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:42PM (#20641362)
For 90% of the cases that interest mainstream media, economics is not a science because proper experiments cannot be run. You cannot have clean counterfactuals and no "A/B testing" setup to validate hypothesis in most interesting cases of dramatic economic events (like a recession). Most theories end up being... theories, with weak validation based on dubious instrumental variables, if any are considered at all.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by bacon_waffle on Thursday August 08, 2019 @12:47AM (#20641927)
Being unable to run those sorts of experiments doesn't disqualify a field from being a Science - consider astrophysics.

I think the issue here is more that economics is describing human behaviour, and we don't fit well in to a mathematical formula.

Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by klodolph on Thursday August 08, 2019 @03:31AM (#20642541)
This is exactly correct. But the issue that “humans don’t fit well to a mathematical formula” is also true of everything that you don’t describe with quantum field theory. Even chemistry is full of this.
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by philipps on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:34AM (#20643522)
A key aspect of the scientific method is that claims can be demonstrated to be not true (it doesn’t matter if the demonstration is done in a lab or not).
Re:Inflated Bond Ratings Helped Spur the Financial Crisis. T... by notfromhere on Thursday August 08, 2019 @09:49AM (#20644510)
You do understand that economists run experiments all the time, right?