News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by chmod775 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:09AM (#20634334)
Some (not all) of US police are uniquely unqualified to deal with this.

You need to be able to show some compassion in this job and try to actually help people instead of just being a squad of gun wielding weirdos who show up to cart any suspicious people away, guns blazing.

In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and locking them away.

The way US police tend to operate fits well within a justice system that is focused on draconic punishment instead of rehabilitation and reintegration though.

Some people need a guiding hand to find back into society. In the US you're liable to get kicked into the mud and danced upon instead.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by Ballas on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:28AM (#20634470)
As an outsider, it seems that the way the police in the US react is the consequence of interaction with the public.

In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by qekbg on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:44AM (#20634604)
It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by RHSeeger on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:14AM (#20634841)
A friend of mine explained his viewpoint as... Sure, there's only a few bad apples doing horrible things. But then there's a LOT of cops, and their union, that help/stand up for those bad apples. If you're not taking a bribe, but you are actively looking away when your partner is; you're the bad guy. There's the well known blue wall of silence, and everyone that makes up that wall is part of the problem.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by ceejayoz on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:02PM (#20635929)
Precisely.

Defenders of police misconduct tend to cite the "it's just a few bad apples" line without noting the full adage is "a few bad apples spoils the barrel".

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by ComputerGuru on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:23AM (#20634927)
Call me when the Fraternal Order of Police stops defending bad cops that were found guilty in a court of law, declaiming the “injustice“ that took place.

These guys are supposed to uphold the law, instead they prop up murderers and accuse the justice department of railroading “innocent” cops. See “Police union blasts ‘sham trial and shameful’ Van Dyke guilty verdict” [0]

0: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/10/5/18460941/police-union...

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by mchanson on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:57AM (#20634710)
Why are you certain of this? I do not think Police deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by qekbg on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:07AM (#20634781)
I don't know how many cops are there in the US but thinking most of them are psychopaths is absurd.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by onemoresoop on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:19AM (#20634876)
Nobody thinks that to my knowledge, or at least thats not the general opinion about cops.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by scarface74 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:25PM (#20637419)
To paraphrase Chris Rock, some jobs can’t have bad apples. No one would accept it if the Delta CEO said “most of our pilots are good people, some just like to fly into mountains every now and then.”
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by soVeryTired on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:15AM (#20635441)
I'm not so sure: I think there's a cultural problem with American policing. I get the sense that US police expect immediate compliance with their Any failure to comply is met with escalation of force rather than with reason. This is the "Ask, Tell, Make" philosophy of policing.

Contrast this with the principles of policing by consent [0] that define the ideals (though not necessarily the reality) of policing in the UK and many other countries.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by steveeq1 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:16PM (#20636071)
You obviously don't live in america then. Police are heavily trained to DE-escalate the situation. I know, I'm a person of color and the few times I've had to deal with the police, they were polite, courteous and professional.

The thing is is survivorship bias often shows in the media. most police encounters are not reported in the media because it's common and everyday. But the very few that turn into a big production get reported because it gets ratings. So through survivorship bias, confirmation bias, and availability bias, the problem seems bigger than it actually is.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by scarface74 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:28PM (#20637442)
Are you a “person of color” or are you Black? How tall and big are you? I’m Black and 5 foot 5. No one sees me as a threat. My step son is s big guy who immediately is seen as threat until he starts talking - he’s lived in the burbs all of his life.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by onemoresoop on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:14AM (#20634847)
Ok, some are great, but when you see that the ‘bad guys’ in the police face no consequences for their actions, the police force looses respect in the eyes of the public. And that’s a normal reaction. But they can earn it back, though it seems, through their training and instructions, they quite often prefer intimidation over respect.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by CompanionCuuube on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:02PM (#20638320)
But you're going to hear a lot about "a few bad apples spoil the barrel" as if it's okay to talk about people like disposable fruit. Think for a moment, would those people be okay with letting the police use that reasoning?
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by johnmaguire2013 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:32AM (#20634505)
Classic chicken or egg...
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by rjf72 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:51AM (#20634664)
Violent crime was at extremely negligible levels in the fifties. In just 3-4 decades to the 90s it ended up increasing (per rate) by around 800%. That's a part of where the hyper-tough on crime laws came from, and it's also when you started seeing an increasing militarization of the police.

Violent crime then decreased by about 50% to 2014, though that still of course leaves us at a level multiple times higher than where we started. And it's now back on the rise. Here are the raw numbers [1]. They're quite interesting to consider.

Something I'm quite curious about on Hacker News, preempting the downvotes can people explain what they find offensive about data?

[1] - http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by bena on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:01PM (#20635921)
Eh. This might be a case of not really having good data.

Looking at the "data", one would conclude that Autism is on the rise. But we didn't even know what it was not too long ago. And we sure as hell didn't check for it. There are more diagnoses of Autism because we're actually looking now.

Today, domestic violence would be classified as a violent crime. In the fifties, it was called keeping your wife in line.

Lynching a black man was a way to keep him away from your pristine daughter in the fifties. Now. It's a crime.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by rjf72 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:47PM (#20638853)
I think this is a rather extreme mischaracterization of a society, but proving things like this statistically is not possible. Because, while it may be a mischaracterization, you are certainly correct that domestic violence was much more normalized (even if still extremely rare) and you likely would have seen a much lower reporting rate because of this. So that problem does cause an issue with getting down to the very exact number.

Fortunately, there's a much simpler response. Just referencing the data from the provided link (starting in the 60s) [1], the increase in crime is for literally every single category of crime. And most saw very dramatic increases: robbery 400%, assault 500%, burgularly 300%, theft 300%, auto theft 300% increase, etc. You can cast uncertainty on some of the figures but the extremely high rate increases paired with the fact it was spread across literally every single crime leaves little 0 doubt that there was absolutely an exponentially increasing crime rate between 1960 and 1991.

As one aside, that 1991 date is really quite peculiar. Nearly every single crime hit its peak in that year. You'd expect different crimes to decline at different rates or even statistical noise to have played a role. Yet at a glance the only crime that didn't hit its peak in 1991 was forcible rape, which peaked in 1992. The 'Military Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies Act' [2] formalizing the increasing militarization of police (which would really go into overdrive after the North Hollywood shootout) was passed in 1981.

[1] - http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Cooperation_with_Civi...

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by philipkglass on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:30PM (#20636260)
I didn't downvote you. In the past I have referred to the same table that you link. But it doesn't substantiate your point about crime rates in the 1950s because the data set starts at 1960. You may be correct, but your link doesn't show it. I would be interested in US violent crime rates in the decades before 1960 if you can find a similar table covering that time range.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by CapricornNoble on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:24AM (#20635556)
>>>The way US police tend to operate fits well within a justice system that is focused on draconic punishment instead of rehabilitation and reintegration though.

US law enforcement agencies have conducted joint training with Israeli experts for decades. So it should be no surprise that our police forces have taken on a callous "siege mentality".[1]

[1]https://theintercept.com/2017/09/15/police-israel-cops-train...

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by b_tterc_p on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:26AM (#20634457)
> In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and locking them away.

This sounds false to me outside of some Western European areas but I don’t have data to support it

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by chmod775 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:07AM (#20634778)
Well here's some data to support my side of the argument. Note that this chart uses a logarithmic scale:

https://i.ibb.co/gMtDhgQ/b.png

Full PDF: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-stat...

Sadly I couldn't find the number of arrests made in any useful comparison, but US police have a policy of "taking people in" for almost any offense, so I'd expect it to roughly match that.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by iguy on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:37AM (#20635057)
Can you explain what you see in this graph? I'm baffled, I don't know what "suspects" means, nor why Canada has 10x as many as Mexico. (Presumably the x-axis is police per million population, or similar.)
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by rojcyk on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:40AM (#20634579)
The situation is similar to what the parent describes in the Czech Republic (which is considered eastern Europe).
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by iguy on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:08AM (#20634784)
But IIRC these central/eastern European countries don't have very high crime. I presume what GP meant is that one should also look at other places with comparable size crime problems.

I mean comparing Baltimore to (say) Prague is a bit like comparing it to Malibu, I'm not sure we learn much. But compare it to districts of Rio, for instance, and then maybe we can learn something about how different policing approaches play out.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by gambiting on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:02AM (#20634743)
I'd say Poland too, which again, some consider Eastern Europe.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by rossdavidh on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @09:54AM (#20634680)
I would agree that most US police are not qualified to deal with the issues of trust. Part of that is that they don't have the training, part of that is that there are centuries of bad history in the way of it, and part of it is that for police to do this in a better way would require a lot more police per 1,000 citizens, which is hard to get political support for.

I'm not sure that it's true that "most other countries" police work the way you're saying. There's a good book on the problems of policing world-wide, " The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence by Gary A. Haugen,Victor Boutros".

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1733234333

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by AS126 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:13AM (#20634830)
Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems.

Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by dariusj18 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:22AM (#20634915)
I think it's a vicious cycle. Many countries with less "crime" require less police, therefore they can be more selective about the people they hire and spend more money to train them. In the US, policing and prison are huge industries, and at a certain point there are not enough qualified individuals to go around.

Now imagine the TSA and Border patrol and many other government security institutions. So many cast offs.

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by ComputerGuru on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:26AM (#20634961)
There aren’t enough qualified candidates because they literally are not interested in hiring people that can think for themselves rather than blindly follow orders and protocol. I know how petty this statement sounds, and you’re probably thinking “ok there, someone has an axe to grind or needs to learn some nuance,” but read this news article about what (legally!) disqualifies a candidate from being hired as an officer:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by SamReidHughes on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:51PM (#20641690)
No, they just want to save money on training by avoiding high turnover.
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by username90 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:31PM (#20637469)
Another point is the kind of work police has to deal with. In a low crime country police almost never has to deal with criminals with weapons or guns, so they never have to fear for their lives. This means that people who don't like violence don't mind joining the police. However in USA where police have to engage in lots of violence just to do their job the people who want to join the police are very different.
[dead]
Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by ceejayoz on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @12:06PM (#20635962)
https://www.thelocal.se/20180508/why-sweden-doesnt-keep-stat...

> It doesn't take much effort to find articles claiming to have the 'truth' about the relationship between immigrants or refugees and Swedish crime. Yet the real truth is that there is no up-to-date public data on the ethnic background of criminals in the country, with existing figures more than a decade old.

Do you have reputable citations for Oslo/Norway crime by ethnic background that demonstrate what you assert? Norway says overall rates are down, which would be weird if the influx of refugees was increasing crime: https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/crime-rates-decrease-norw...

Re:Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox Americ... by username90 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:23PM (#20637398)
Last time Sweden released an official study they were very over-represented. The numbers for the following groups are the rate compared to natives, 1 means that they would commit the same amount of crime as Swedes:

Västasien (West Asia) 3.7

Nordafrika (North Africa) 4.6

Östafrika (East Africa) 3.5

Övriga Afrika (Rest of Africa) 5.2

(The numbers written in the study had native swedes at 0.8 so I multiplied these numbers by 1.25 to normalize it)

https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012697/2...

Nothing since then has shown that the rates have changed, so you can assume that they are still valid. Everybody knows that these groups are over-represented and that accepting immigrants increases crime, that isn't really a part of the debate. You can argue why they are over-represented, such as poverty and discrimination, but not that there are more criminals among them.

Anyhow, wrt America, even the worst right wing propaganda doesn't show our African immigrants committing as much crime as African Americans, so the Swedish model seems to work at least somewhat.