News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by wyldfire on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:17AM (#20604711)
I think that technology has brought us some truly marvelous things. But they also enable us to avoid casual social contact while enabling us to withdraw from meaningful social contact.

Online anonymity permits endless Sybil attacks -- helping turn communities' frustration from anger and rage into violence. I'm guessing/assuming that 8chan is an anything goes censorship free community (like 4chan was/is?). And maybe it's not explicitly in support of racist ideals but instead refuses to condemn any ideologies or discussion. But because of other communities' moderation, they likely become one of the bastions of the racists. So even if their ownership never had any interest in hate speech, their platform becomes a de facto mechanism for its spread.

As much problems as anonymity causes I sure don't think that some new Real World Identity driven Internet would be a good idea. But sites with next to no content moderation seem like a bad idea. Not that I can imagine a resolution, really.

~~

I imagine how frustrated I might feel if I didn't have some kind of daily work or creative task to keep me busy and fill me with purpose. If I felt depressed I might be willing to blame it on someone. If everything I read said that in fact there is someone to blame, I wonder: would I be able to see through that? Would I stand up and say 'no, that's wrong: those people aren't the source of our problems'? I like to think I would. But I've definitely caught myself (long after the fact) buying into BS groupthink/hivemind conspiracy hogwash.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by adwi on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:47PM (#20609136)
“In a Sybil attack, the attacker subverts the reputation system of a peer-to-peer network by creating a large number of pseudonymous identities and uses them to gain a disproportionately large influence.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by irvwash on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:07AM (#20605522)
> I'm guessing/assuming that 8chan is an anything goes censorship free community (like 4chan was/is?). And maybe it's not explicitly in support of racist ideals but instead refuses to condemn any ideologies or discussion

More or less. More so than 4chan.

8chan is like Reddit (and unlike 4chan) in that it allows anyone to set up a subcommunity that they can moderate however they like. Only illegal content (and nude/sexual images of children, and certain spam) isn't allowed at all. Individual boards may be moderated very tightly.

There are all kinds of boards there, even for communists, and for Muslims. They're scrupulous about allowing even things they don't like.

/pol/ is the board where these manifestos keep getting posted. The shootings generally get celebrated there. It's actively moderated, as visible in the moderation log: https://8ch.net/log.php?board=pol

But /pol/ is not just any board. I stopped paying attention after the Christchurch shooting, but at that time, it was the only large global board, a board owned by the administration. Global site volunteers, who are normally only authorized to handle illegal content (aside from roles they have on other boards) were allowed to moderate /pol/. The site owners set the rules and policies for the board and appointed its ordinary (non-global) moderators.

/pol/ became a global board after its previous owner mismanaged it and the administration seized it. The community was already like that, and if the administration tried to change things locally people would just flock to a different more permissive board. But I think 8chan is a little more than just a platform in this case.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by BoiledCabbage on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:10PM (#20607797)
Think about that for a min. Racism is allowed, but not Spam.

They will allow Racism, but actively moderate out Spam.

What type of joke is this? There is no hiding behind it, they intentionally and actively allow it to become a breeding ground for violent racists.

It's like what in the world did you guys imagining Al Qaeda recruiting msg boards l look like.

"No Al Qaeda msg boards have people claiming for death to Americans".

And 8chan boards are also doing the same thing. It's disgusting, but people are desensitized to how absurd it is.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by irvwash on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:56PM (#20608124)
> They will allow Racism, but actively moderate out Spam.

Reddit used to be like that as far as I know, and though there's plenty to criticize I don't think Reddit was intentionally set up to become a breeding ground for violent racists.

8chan's policy about spam is very different from how a policy against racism would look. What it in practice means is that if someone posts the same suspicious link on a hundred boards they may be hit by a global ban instead of leaving the mess for individual board owners to clean up. Even very principled proponents of free speech usually don't mind that.

There's no guarantee that spam will be cleaned up, it just doesn't get the protection of it being up to the board owner. For a long time 8chan didn't even have a functional anti-spam system. It's a practical matter foremost.

A rule against racism would be much more thornier. It would have more edge cases, and it would have to be enforced more consistently. It would be a lot more work and it would be more arbitrary. And it would go against the sensibilities of the original founder, who's a libertarian (I don't know if he's racist).

8chan wasn't created to be a breeding ground for violent racists. It was created to be a make-your-own-forum website with minimalist rules. For the first year, before gamergate drove more people to it, it was just that. In July 2014 an innocent roleplaying board was the most popular: http://web.archive.org/web/20140701141242/https://8chan.co/b...

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by BoiledCabbage on Sunday August 04, 2019 @10:06PM (#20610493)
> It would have more edge cases, and it would have to be enforced more consistently. It would be a lot more work

Obviously it would be more work than doing nothing. That's not an argument to do nothing though. There are plenty of topics moderated away (interpreting the age of teens/children in images for example) and yet those get handled with all of the subjectivity just fine. So that's also unrelated to why.

Noone said that 8chan was intentinoally created to be what it's become - what was said was that it has been allowed to become what it has become with no intervention.

And to your final point, even it's original creator says it should be shut down given what it's turned into. If the principled founder says "this has gone too far", maybe it's time to take it seriously.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by throwaway5d097 on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:11PM (#20608216)
A global ban for promoting genocide or murder doesn't seem too complicated
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by irvwash on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:31PM (#20608364)
It's still more work, because some people will get upset that they're not allowed to promote genocide. It still has edge cases (I've seen some hairy examples from Facebook moderation guidelines). It's also still more of a free speech issue than deleting spam is.

That doesn't mean such a ban would be bad, but it is complicated, and someone who doesn't like genocide might still not want it.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by throwaway5d097 on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:00PM (#20615770)
I think I sort of get it now.

Moderating spam is easier. Apparently it's hard to tell between "we should kill these people" and "these people are being killed" due to a language barrier sometimes, and it's hard to automate.

But wow. You all think "let's kill these people" somehow has more value than "buy my shit/here is a malware link", nice. downboat away

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by throwaway5d097 on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:47AM (#20611843)
The closest such edge cases I found were mixups between enticement and reportage about Syrian war crimes and Rohingya genocide. What edge cases have you seen?

I don't mean banning racism, but enticement for violent action.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by nfrbc on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:53PM (#20608498)
It's not that hard to understand.

A lot of people on Hacker News gets extremely upset when some site or institution decides to censor genocide advocacy, racism, or anything at all.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by paulddraper on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:23PM (#20609309)
> They will allow Racism, but actively moderate out Spam

Moderating "racist" comments is very far from straightforward. No one can agree what it would be.

Which of the following statements would be racist?

1. Organizations whose members are exclusively white are appropriate.

2. Organizations whose members are exclusively people of color are appropriate.

3. Blacks are a minority but commit a majority of violent crimes in the U.S.

4. Average height varies by race.

5. Average IQ varies by race.

6. Nigeria is a hellhole.

7. South Africa is a hellhole.

8. I prefer not to date blacks.

---

Even Reddit bans spam but not racism.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by BoiledCabbage on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:32PM (#20609354)
Guess what? The world is filled with imperfection.

The line of reasoning "Since I can't come up with a perfect solution, so instead I'll do nothing at all", is a terrible approach.

The courts get things wrong, credit card fraud detection gets things wrong, anti-virus gets things wrong. Tons of things aren't perfect - that's the real world.

The answer of "well I can't come up with a perfect version of those so let's do nothing" is preposterous.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by paulddraper on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:25PM (#20609890)
It is no stretch of logic to say that moderation rules should be clear, not according to the whim of the moderator.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by dragonsngoblins on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:24PM (#20609886)
There is also the practical side to be considered. It is very easy to police spam with bots, and racism basically requires human intervention to recognize and moderate.
[dead]
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by irvwash on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:22AM (#20606370)
/pol/ is not an organization. It's a loose community of people, almost none of whom have done anything worse than expressing terrible opinions.

Shootings are incentivized by /pol/ and frequently announced there, but they're not planned on /pol/.

I don't think "/pol/ operatives" meaningfully exist.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by hedora on Sunday August 04, 2019 @12:15PM (#20607384)
Some /pol/ members have committed acts of mass murder.

Al Queda is also a loose organization without explicit membership, etc.

I don’t see any difference between the two organizational structures from an anti terror perspective (though Al Queda might sometimes organize humanitarian actions — Many Islamic terrorist groups have a recruiting arm that does this sort of thing, and I can’t keep them straight anymore)

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by satokema on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:18PM (#20607857)
Some U.S. citizens have committed acts of mass murder.

Al Queda is also a loose organization without explicit membership, etc.

I don’t see any difference between the two organizational structures from an anti terror perspective (though Al Queda might sometimes organize humanitarian actions — Many Islamic terrorist groups have a recruiting arm that does this sort of thing, and I can’t keep them straight anymore)

...do you see why your view is absurd? I can paint almost any group with that brush.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by liability on Sunday August 04, 2019 @09:02AM (#20606262)
Control of territory. Al Queda and/or their associates were effectively a government, while /pol/ can only wish for that sort of power.

(Related to that is the matter of geographic distribution. One of these guys could be your next door neighbor, and the US Military is not allowed to drop bombs in American neighborhoods. That's in the Constitution.)

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by HoveringOrb on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:48AM (#20607211)
>maybe it's not explicitly in support of racist ideals

Let me stop you right there...

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by novok on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:33AM (#20605177)
The red light district effect
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by dgellow on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:16AM (#20605342)
What does that mean?
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by StavrosK on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:49AM (#20605452)
It's when you corral all unwanted behavior in a single place that's easier to police.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by dgellow on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:36AM (#20612905)
Thanks!
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by novok on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:42PM (#20621262)
And as a result, all of the undesirables tend to cluster there. You also see something similar with the tenderloin & soma in SF, the official / unofficial homeless containment zone.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by matt-attack on Sunday August 04, 2019 @10:53AM (#20606856)
Interesting that a google search for "8chan" doesn't return a link to it anywhere on the first page of results (for me).
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by codysan on Sunday August 04, 2019 @11:03AM (#20606929)
It's been, along with some other *chans, scrubbed from Google search results for quite some time now.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by matt-attack on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:22PM (#20608298)
Interesting. Didn’t know Google censored like that. I guess it was a bit naive of me. Any list of known sites censored by Google? I’d be interested in visiting them...
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by fwip on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:23AM (#20604733)
Yep - 8chan was started because even 4chan wasn't odious enough for them.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by blueboo on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:29AM (#20605170)
Or rather, the speech wasn’t “free” enough.

> 8chan’s founder, Fredrick Brennan, created the site in response to what he sees as the ongoing and vast loss of free speech on the Internet. On 8chan, “anyone can say what they want and mean,” Brennan told the Daily Dot.

> Brennan now calls 8chan a “free-speech-friendly 4chan alternative.”

> He called 4chan “authoritarian” and accused it of turning into a soulless for-profit venture.

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/8chan-pedophiles-child-porn-...

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by mieseratte on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:04AM (#20605718)
For every attempt at censorship there will be those that bristle at authoritarianism and react. Then there will be those that devolve into accusing free speech supporters as supporters of specific disagreeable speech.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by fwip on Sunday August 04, 2019 @01:27PM (#20607900)
Yep, 8chan users wanted to be shittier than even 4chan would let them be.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by faissaloo on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:46AM (#20605030)
This keeps getting repeated but it's not exactly true, 8chan was started because Fredrick Brennan had a shroom trip where he saw an Ouroboros and came up with the idea to make a 4chan where you could make your own board. People then ended up migrating over during GamerGate because Moot was shutting down discussion of it.
[dead]
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by faissaloo on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:24AM (#20605574)
8chan's /gg/ board was really strict on that sort of stuff so I doubt it was just 'sexual violence' that was being censored.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by panpanna on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:41AM (#20605218)
To people dowvoting parent: please google

gamergate Charlottenville

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by s9w on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:22AM (#20605362)
Not only is there no connection between pro-gamergate and threats, it's literally the other way round. And Charlottesville has absolutely nothing to do with this whatsoever
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by panpanna on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:26AM (#20605580)
Literally the first item on a DGG search:

"How Charlottesville and Gamergate are Completely Related"

Second item:

"Matthew Robert Warner: From GamerGate to Identity Evropa"

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by leereeves on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:05AM (#20605719)
The first item is an opinion piece from the very credible Xennial-in-Chief writing for brokeassstuart.com with no relevant facts.

The second is about one person who is literally the only connection IdentifyEvropa found between the two groups. And what was that connection? He tweeted a few tweets about it.

https://identifyevropa.org/tag/gamergate/

The lack of substantial links only provides evidence that there is no real connection.

Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by faissaloo on Sunday August 04, 2019 @02:00PM (#20608151)
By this logic Zoe Quinn is the reason for the rise of 21st century nazism.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by akhilcacharya on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:08PM (#20608601)
No, but GamerGate is in the west.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by noobermin on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:39AM (#20605207)
Never hung around /v/ during those years, but my guess is it there was no censorship, it was just paranoia as usual. If they really cared so much about it, they could post on /b/.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by soyguzzler on Sunday August 04, 2019 @05:41AM (#20605429)
I was there and not only did the censorship was unexpected and uncalled for, it happened on /r/games at the same time also, which was very uncanny.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by hhjinks on Sunday August 04, 2019 @07:18AM (#20605771)
Not only that, the catalyst was the most innocuous GamerGate take of the entire fiasco, which was TotalBiscuit's twitlonger about it, where he categorically condemned harassment, and rather used all the hubbub to talk about actual issues in gaming journalism. Nuking that entire thread might've been one of the biggest blunder in reddit history, alongside the Boston bomber fiasco.
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by leereeves on Sunday August 04, 2019 @08:04AM (#20605977)
If you don't know, why are you posting a guess?
Re:8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now by noobermin on Sunday August 04, 2019 @12:27PM (#20607465)
Because moot wasn't a censoring type, went against his nature and 4chan in general.