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Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @12:50PM (#20585710)
Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring.

However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earliest memory was as a baby, equally I used to have a nightmare that abaieted when I was able to tell my mother who informed me of my birth complications and so much of my nightmare correlated, just seemed so related but then, never know for sure beyond once I knew this, my nightmares stopped. In short, maybe (least in my case) autistic people senses and other parts of the brain kick in earlier at a time when we are less able to process them and this becomes another party of the puzzle.

But would I change if I could go back in time and become normal is a question I have asked myself and the answer for me is - no, though the thought of what life would of been like, naturally yields to pondering.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by erikgaas on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:42PM (#20586325)
I took a neuroscience course back in the day that discussed findings related to autism. I don't remember everything, but there was a discussion on excess dopamine early in the brain and a later depression of glutamate levels. All in all this would lead to more sparsity of neural activations in the brain. This made sense. Too much dopamine would lead to excess plasticity, causing a normal amount of glutamate to have too great of an effect, so the brain compensates by producing less glutamate, producing the same amount of neural activations but now sparsely spread out in a post-plastic brain. From my naive common sense perspective, it would make sense that an autism prevention would be some mechanism to limit plasticity during development. I'm really stretching argument here, but maybe this has some connection to autism brains "kicking in" early.

The connection to estrogen is an interesting one. Estrogen does have an important effect on neurotransmitter receptors, including dopaminergic, but my speculation is worthless here. Is there anyone here that has a better understanding of this that can provide some clarity?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by AstralStorm on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:11PM (#20587235)
You're building a theoretical treatment based on a theory you have not validated. (I'm not aware of any reasonable validation in e.g. a model organism at least.)

So, go back, and first check or devise a model. Model organism for autism is a very hard problem.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by therealx on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:38PM (#20587476)
He said his comment is worthless (in a truly medical way), so I don't see the point in your comment.

Fwiw I found his comment to be interesting conjecture. I too have many dopamine related issues and until we have a better true understanding, all we can do is hypothesize and guess based on the small bits we do know.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by im3w1l on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:54PM (#20588738)
I guess this is "how it's done". But why should it be? As long as all the hypotheses he states can be directly measured in humans that should be enough.

Treating humans as black boxes isn't necessary anymore. We have very good measuring tools now. I believe we can make much faster progress if we just look inside and use logic inference.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by loceng on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:04PM (#20586540)
Couldn't you classify what you described as early trauma - highly stressful situation? I ask because I would have been considered Asperger's as a child, however was never formally diagnosed, and I had I'd call traumatic, a few childhood experiences with severe pain. It was however a series of events in my early 20s lead me to developing a severe hypersensitivity to sound, which then through trying to problem solve, discovered a sound therapy - with a diagnostic method of determining if the therapy would help before doing it - I did it, and it helped me dramatically, including unblocking whatever developmental blocks had occurred at an early age; I had extremely painful ear infections as a child, very stressful for the nervous system - and at a time of rapid brain development - and without going into more detail now, which I have in the past on HN, whatever coping mechanisms lead to autistic characteristics relating to processing feelings, emotion, focusing, which cascade learning, attention, etc. The sound therapy can potentially help the full autism spectrum, of course what the cause is will likely impact who will benefit from it; you also don't lose any of your skills developed, things just flow easier, and you may have gain access to sensory in a more balanced manner, leading to better self-regulation. The therapy I did is called Auditory Integration Training or Berard AIT for short; there is also another method called the Tomatis method which is apparently more effective if the trauma occurred while still in the womb. There are other sound therapies out there claiming to be beneficial, marketing themselves efficiently, however I'm uncertain of their methods - something I someday hope to test adequately with proper research comparing sound therapies.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:43PM (#20586946)
Hard to clarify, and just earliest memories and maybe trauma solidified those event in memory, really hard to speculate even from personal experience. Also of note I was diagnosed officially in my late 40's, I was tested for autism when I was 5 (remember that vividly) and they deemed me 50/50, which in the 60's - autism was either yes or no with no aspergers or other half-way definitions.

Interesting how you mention sound sensitivity at a later age and I would say puberty saw many senses become more acute. Hearing still today (which is not fun living above a crack-house) in my 50's, it is still impressive.

I, also developed my own coping mechanisms and in many situations, people would have no clue that I was on the spectrum. Equally I'm aware of my kryptonite issues, so avoidance is as with many, whilst not ideal, a good plan B coping mechanism.

But with sound, and many coping mechanisms we develop in out brain, I do find falling asleep hard as those mechanisms take focus and the conflict of sleep and awake fall foul in such situations.

But I just love my bluetooth headphones, listening to music and whilst not drown out the outside world (I don't use noise canceling and play music low), it is enough to dull outside sounds that can prove annoying - which are more annoying the more tired I am, as in unable to focus them out.

But you know what my most favorite things in life still is today - a walk in the snow with nobody around. Kinda my happy place and living in outer London, one in which a good memory has its upsides as not that many opportunities to actually do it.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by loceng on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:10PM (#20588392)
What you've said overall makes me think you're hypersensitive to sound - and that if you can afford a ~$50 USD hearing test/audiogram to check for imbalances in your hearing then it'd be worthwhile confirming that; it's not a standard audiogram, you'd have to call around to ask and find out if they know what that is - and is meant for use with Berard's Auditory Integration Training) which then can confirm imbalances. Imbalances showing at certain frequencies is actually just a signal that something is blocked function wise, not processing how it should, as your brain and body is a system of homeostasis that wants to find equilibrium at all times - so it should be able to equalize the perception of sound (save actual damage to the hearing); yes, damage is also a possibility, or both. There's a book on it called "Hearing Equals Behaviour: Updated and Expanded" on Amazon - has original book within it.

Do you remember having ear infections as a child, and were they painful at all?

Re: Falling asleep - what you've said regarding sleep is another proof point to me that you likely have a hearing imbalance. I found the comment on HN I made going into more detail on theory of how it works - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13657973 - and in it I explain why your brain may not be able to actually stop paying attention to sound, which of course - a natural cycle of falling asleep - will have your senses slowly diminish until you're asleep and not not getting strong signals from them, or rather not reacting to them - making it difficult to fall asleep.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:02PM (#20588797)
"Do you remember having ear infections as a child, and were they painful at all" No, though tonsils often a source of discontent, so removed. Though nobody ever warned that they could grow back, though not a troublesome size. As for ear balance, no issue there.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by loceng on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:15PM (#20594678)
If you haven't had an audiogram specifically to check for imbalances in your hearing, then standard audiograms won't tell you.

When I was in Grade 2 I had trouble focusing in class - they brought in an audiologist to see if I had trouble hearing. They were surprised that no, in fact, I could hear extremely well - however they didn't recognize that as a problem, hypersensitive hearing.

A standard audiogram only checks to see that you can hear well enough in each ear, at different frequencies, say at 15 decibels. Checking for imbalances they check instead for HOW LOW of a decibel you can hear at different frequencies. Say in your right ear the lowest you can hear 1000 Hz frequency is 15 decibels, but in your left ear you hear at 10 decibels - that would show an imbalance by 5 decibels. Very few audiologists do this test, so I'd be very surprised if you found stumbled into one who did check it in this way.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by ddingus on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:44PM (#20587539)
Oh, I love a walk in the snow, ideally when it is falling, nobody around.

So soothing.

I am not autistic, but do have high aural senses. As a kid, I could hear well above 20khz. Today, that has rolled off due to age, but my discrimination is still great.

Sounds can sometimes move me to distraction. ASMR, for example. I trigger easily and it is fairly intense.

There is something about the crisp air, dampening on sound that snow presents to us, and what little is heard otherwise seems to just stand right out, like incongruent, but not in a bad way. Just there, present.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by bogwog on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:40PM (#20586303)
That digit ratio stuff has always weirded me out. There are even some studies that show certain ratios correspond with homosexuality. That wikipedia page even has a huge table with a list of stuff like having a high digit ratio corresponds to reduced financial trading ability, and a low digit ratio corresponds to a longer penis.

That shit is weird.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by wnevets on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:09PM (#20586583)
People tend to forget just how important hormones can be and just assume everything is because of genes.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:49PM (#20587036)
We are also only equally coming around to the thinking that the makeup of bacteria in the stomach has a bigger impact in area's that we have never invisanged before.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by dekhn on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:13PM (#20587251)
hormones are proteins encoded by genes that affect gene transcription. Many hormones respond to entirely internal signals. So, much of what hormones do have a root cause in genomes (but, there are definitely limits on that statement).
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by refurb on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:10PM (#20587829)
That's an odd comment since hormones are the result of gene expression.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by PeterisP on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:09PM (#20588845)
Not necessarily, for example, the very thing in the article title - high levels of oestrogens in the womb - is about hormone levels not caused by expression of your genes but influenced by outside environment.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by taneq on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:49PM (#20589097)
An outside environment which shares ~50% of your genes, though.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by blaser-waffle on Friday August 02, 2019 @09:15AM (#20592669)
Nothing genetic about lead in the air or in paint, or hormones in your beef. Nothing genetic about alcohol or cigarette exposure in the womb. Or random thugs terrifying your parents, putting your pregnant mom through waves of fight-or-flight hormone spikes.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by dsalso on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:45PM (#20589061)
Yeah, but they are more precisely a function of environment. Diet, stress even sunlight affect hormone levels in a given individual.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by tapland on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:13PM (#20587862)
They are usually, but you don't get much variation without issues that are not genetic that affect hormones. Like hormone producing tumours.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by wnevets on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:34PM (#20588047)
IMO gene expression is very different than what layman like myself mean when we talk about our genes.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by refurb on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:00PM (#20588309)
OK, fair point.

In order for genes to have any impact on an organism they need to be expressed. And it's expression that creates the enzymes that create hormones. So it's hard to separate those two.

Environmental exposure can change how genes are expressed and thus hormones.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Sharlin on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:56PM (#20588757)
But hormones are one of the things that affect gene expression in turn. There aren’t really many straightforward causal relationships in biology.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by refurb on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:10PM (#20588850)
That's true, but the hormones wouldn't changes gene expression unless it was already encoded in the genes.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:48PM (#20587026)
As with many traits, not always a given, just more likely. Though the last one you mention, as somebody with a low digit ratio is one that escaped me and I'm just fine with that, as happily dispel the relationship myth about shoe size in which I'm size 13UK/14USA.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by b_tterc_p on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:58PM (#20588778)
It’s not that surprising. It’s just a second order effect of an important environmental factor at a critical development stage.

Hormones valances in the womb, as you mentioned, are likely a driver of homosexuality. And having kids changes the hormone balance, making some arrangements of sons and daughters more likely to be gay.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lonelappde on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:28PM (#20588546)
It's essentially a list of stereotypically male/female traits that correlate with testosterone/estrogen.

And of course not a p-value or effect size is sight.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by b_tterc_p on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:03PM (#20588804)
> And of course not a p-value or effect size is sight.

Because... it’s wikipedia and you wouldn’t expect to find those things

While I’m sure nobody thinks there is a casual relationship, you can find statistically significant effects on the digit ratio

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by jacobolus on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:04PM (#20585885)
> index and forefinger are of equal lengths

Those are two names for the same finger. Did you mean index and ring ringer?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:09PM (#20585948)
I did, thank you, my bad. Glad I dug up a relevant link to dispel my confusion there.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by epx on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:14PM (#20586008)
Same story here: same length of those 2 fingers, complications at birth, damn good memory for things when I was child, and Aspie to the bone.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by inflatableDodo on Thursday August 01, 2019 @09:42PM (#20590084)
Don't know about birth complications but otherwise same.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by technothrasher on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:05PM (#20585902)
if I could go back in time and become normal

I don't know if this is good news, or bad news but... there is no normal. I know what you meant, what it would be like without ASD. But I'm not sure that would give you any particular insight into anything other than simply being a different person.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by SkyBelow on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:58PM (#20587688)
> there is no normal.

In a classroom of 30 students, where 1 is viewed by the rest as abnormal, there is normal. Yes, it is only a social construct whose impact is based on our personal experience and the society in which we live, but this is true of many things which I think we would not tolerate being dismissed so readily.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by roguecoder on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:29PM (#20671468)
But that's not what happens, despite what people seem to think. On average 1 of those students will be Autistic, but also 3 of those students will have ADHD, 2 or 3 will have "personality disorders", 2 will experience childhood trauma, 1 will be a high-testosterone child assigned the sex "female" at birth, 3 will have specific learning disabilities and 1 or 2 will be considered "gifted".

When half the class isn't neurotypical, being neurotypical isn't any more "normal" than having blue eyes is "normal".

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by mrlala on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:31PM (#20586798)
>there is no normal

I mean, yeah there is? There are 7 billion people on this planet. If you could create some score of peoples intelligence, how they react/respond to people, their normal physical movements and put that into a distribution the autistic people would definitely be on the tail end of the curves.

Sure everyone is different in various ways- but a lot of those differences are very small compared to the differences exhibited by autistic people.

I can give you a direct example- my oldest son has.. something. We had him tested for autism when he was younger and were basically told that yeah there is 'something'. He's not technically autistic, or at least not the level where he needs extreme special stuff, but he does exhibit some of the traits of autistic children, just in a more minor way. So for lack of any better term he is "very slightly autistic". At 7 years old he has an insane memory (closest to "photographic" that I've ever encountered) and seems highly intelligent in some areas (but definitely not in others! it's quite incredible actually to see sometimes..). He has some of the physical traits where he can't really sit still, needs weighted blankets, has some of those unique arm movements of autistic people.. but again fairly subtle. A lot of things to him can be more black/white than gray, because he seems to need to fit everything into a very specific bucket in his mind.

Every teacher he has had, including some which work with the more special ed kids, has said "yeah there is... something different about him".

Now conversely, my younger child I would classify as "normal". Why do I say that? Well.. I worked at co-op preschools with both of my boys for years. I saw lots of kids. And when you see a ton of kids and play/interact with them... I mean yeah there is a normal. Normal is how you would expect someone to behave and interact with. There is a relatively normal way you would expect a 7 year old to respond in various situations, etc.

Anyway- sorry for writing a book. I guess I'm putting off work.. I just found it a bit strange to not accept that, well, most people are actually pretty darn similar while a minority of people are very different. I see it every day in my house!

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by danielg6 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:39PM (#20586899)
It’s just semantics. There are negative connotations associated with calling someone “normal” versus “abnormal”. I’m sure you’re polite enough to not describe people in wheel chairs as “abnormal”.

The non-controversial terms that people use related to issues like autism are “neurotypical” and “neurodivergent”.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by mrlala on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:06PM (#20587195)
>It’s just semantics

No it's not... I was responding to someone who said there is no "normal". Yeah, there is. Most people behave in a way you would expect. Most people exhibit motor controls the way you would expect. A minority of people, and specifically people with autism, really do think in a "different" way and exhibit strange motor functions at times that most people do not.

I don't think we have to dance around politically correct terms here. I'm using normal in the statistical sense. Statistically, most people are very neurologically similar and then some people are (relatively) wildly different.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by danielg6 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:19PM (#20587302)
> I’m using normal in the statistical sense

Which is semantics. You’re using a different meaning of the word to fit your point just like the person did in the grandfather comment. You even put the word normal in quotes yourself indicating that you understand how words can be interpreted differently. I wasn’t disagreeing with your interpretation of the term.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by navigatesol on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:22PM (#20587331)
>Most people behave in a way you would expect.

This is absurd. How do you have any idea what "you would expect"?

>I'm using normal in the statistical sense. Statistically, most people are very neurologically similar and then some people are (relatively) wildly different.

First, define "very neurologically similar". Second, "most people are similar" in a normal distribution because that's the way the distribution is defined. It's not some biological coincidence.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lazyasciiart on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:47PM (#20590366)
Even without being able to consciously explain their expectations, humans are often consciously aware when their expectations have been violated. Experimentally, there are lots of responses that can be tracked. Unexpected stimuli causes slower reactions, longer focus times, and stronger memories. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/tops.12292
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by navigatesol on Friday August 02, 2019 @09:47AM (#20592851)
I don't see the part of that paper that explains that people "expect" the same things; that there's some "normal expectations" in the population, which is what the OP is arguing.

There's a funny thing that happens every time an article on autism comes up on this site where a bunch of commenters state they have some degree of autism. This aligns perfect with the OP's argument: everyone is "normal", but I'm not. I'm special.

It's why "normies" is a thing. Everyone sees everyone else as "normal", but they're different. I wonder why that is?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lazyasciiart on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:14PM (#20594665)
Ah, when you said > how would you know what "you would expect" I thought you were challenging the idea that people know what they expect from others. It sounds like you were actually challenging the idea that people can know what others expect?
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by roguecoder on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:31PM (#20671480)
Blond hair is less common in the US than autism, but it would be considered very strange to call brown-haired people "normal" and blond-haired people "abnormal".
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by dragonwriter on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:16PM (#20671674)
> Blond hair is less common in the US than autism

The stats I can find quickly suggest blond hair in the US is around 3%, and autism in the US is around 1.7%.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by munificent on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:48PM (#20589468)
> If you could create some score of peoples intelligence, how they react/respond to people, their normal physical movements and put that into a distribution the autistic people would definitely be on the tail end of the curves.

Some measurable aspects of human physiology and behavior would fall into a normal distribution (i.e. "bell curve") if you graph it, yes. Bell curves are common enough that there is a lay assumption that all distributions look like that, but it isn't the case, at all. Certain forces are required to lead to that flavor of distribution and in the absence of those, you can get graphs of all sorts of shapes.

For example, if you were to graph "how feminine" a set of people are, you're unlikely to get a bell curve where most people are androgynous. Instead, you get a bimodal distribution where there's a hump on one side for dudes and one on the right for ladies. In fact, graphs of height show a similar distribution.

If you graph how many fingers someone has, you'll probably get something closer to a power law where almost everyone is on the left at "10", a few misfortunate at "9", even few very unlucky at "8", and so on. (Plus a couple of odd points for polydactyly, etc.) This is the famous "long tail" you hear about in economics.

So there is certainly variation in all attributes, but that does not imply that the center of that range is the most populated. And thus, there may not be a "normal" in the typical "average and most common" sense of the word.

What does a normal set of genitals look like?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by blueprint on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:28PM (#20588007)
Normal means conformance to e.g. a standard. Let's assume the reasonable communal standard of 'factuality', i.e. 'what exists in facts'. Individuals may not be able to tell with 100% precision about the entirety of a fact. But if we take some math problems like 1+3, 2+2, 5+5, etc., and have a person going around believing, teaching, and attempting to apply a different principle (equation, i.e. meaning/relationship of the numbers) then they're going to get different answers. It's wrong to say that 1+1=3 as if it's mathematics. Therefore, it's natural and consistent to conclude that a person who has the wrong answer or wrong view of questions cannot behave normally to those questions nor to the standard of 'what is' in the questions. Have you ever heard that angle on the matter?
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:14PM (#20586009)
Agreed and yes, normal is a perception based upon a mode average. After all, if the majority of people were psychopaths, normal would take on a whole new meaning.

Equally it is hard to evaluate such a different timeline as you are evaluating from a different perspective/timeline.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by technothrasher on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:33PM (#20586221)
Yes, you end up very quickly in Thomas Nagel's "What is it like to be a bat?" scenario. You can't ever know what it is like to be another person (or animal) because as soon as you are that other thing, you are no longer you. If you were still you, you wouldn't be that other thing so you still wouldn't have that knowledge.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by jasonlotito on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:45PM (#20589446)
> But would I change if I could go back in time and become normal is a question I have asked myself and the answer for me is - no

Just as long as people remember that this is a personal decision, and not one you can make for others. I wonder what I would do for my children, both of whom have autism and who I love. But my older child is non-verbal, still wears diapers, and is a flight risk. He cannot take care of himself. I worry what will happen when my wife and I can no longer take care of him adequately. Adult autistic support is not great.

But what will he lose if I "cure" him. Both boys are happy, affectionate, and they are the lights of my life. They are far happier than those who are far more "successful" in life.

It's not easy.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by godelski on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:06PM (#20587189)
Interesting about the digit ratio. As a counter example my ring and index are approximately the same length on both hands, left hand index is only slightly smaller. I've never been diagnosed with autism though (my friend who used to work very closely with autistic kids has suggested that I might be slightly in the spectrum because some characteristics but that's about it).

Could be a pattern. Could be a pattern that doesn't actually exist. I think we need more samples (I'd imagine some selection bias on HN)

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by RmDen on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:38PM (#20586270)
ok..now I am confused which hand do you look at?.. On my left hand..index and ring finger are about the same.... on my right hand the ring finger is longer
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by peeters on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:44PM (#20586346)
For me it varies widely depending on how I hold my hand. If I place them flat on a surface, palm down, fingers together, my ring fingers look longer. If I look at them palm towards me, fingers separated, extended, but relaxed, it's clear the index fingers are longer on both hands.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by fasteo on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:02PM (#20587146)
The other way around for me. I am left handed. This finger ratio thing is weird.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by tarsinge on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:13AM (#20591165)
Maybe I’m misreading but the article says the opposite that it’s a short ratio (short index) that is associated with asperger and autistic traits.
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lonelappde on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:25PM (#20590280)
Autism in males is supposed correlated to high testosterone and long ring fingers, opposite of this article.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn509-pointer-for-autis...

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by m463 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @09:03PM (#20589894)
in regard to the digit ratio:

I notice my fingers are similar in length if I look at the top of my hand.

But looking at the palm of my hand, as shown in the picture on the wikipedia page, they look very different in length.