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Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by technothrasher on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:05PM (#20585902)
if I could go back in time and become normal

I don't know if this is good news, or bad news but... there is no normal. I know what you meant, what it would be like without ASD. But I'm not sure that would give you any particular insight into anything other than simply being a different person.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by SkyBelow on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:58PM (#20587688)
> there is no normal.

In a classroom of 30 students, where 1 is viewed by the rest as abnormal, there is normal. Yes, it is only a social construct whose impact is based on our personal experience and the society in which we live, but this is true of many things which I think we would not tolerate being dismissed so readily.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by roguecoder on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:29PM (#20671468)
But that's not what happens, despite what people seem to think. On average 1 of those students will be Autistic, but also 3 of those students will have ADHD, 2 or 3 will have "personality disorders", 2 will experience childhood trauma, 1 will be a high-testosterone child assigned the sex "female" at birth, 3 will have specific learning disabilities and 1 or 2 will be considered "gifted".

When half the class isn't neurotypical, being neurotypical isn't any more "normal" than having blue eyes is "normal".

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by mrlala on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:31PM (#20586798)
>there is no normal

I mean, yeah there is? There are 7 billion people on this planet. If you could create some score of peoples intelligence, how they react/respond to people, their normal physical movements and put that into a distribution the autistic people would definitely be on the tail end of the curves.

Sure everyone is different in various ways- but a lot of those differences are very small compared to the differences exhibited by autistic people.

I can give you a direct example- my oldest son has.. something. We had him tested for autism when he was younger and were basically told that yeah there is 'something'. He's not technically autistic, or at least not the level where he needs extreme special stuff, but he does exhibit some of the traits of autistic children, just in a more minor way. So for lack of any better term he is "very slightly autistic". At 7 years old he has an insane memory (closest to "photographic" that I've ever encountered) and seems highly intelligent in some areas (but definitely not in others! it's quite incredible actually to see sometimes..). He has some of the physical traits where he can't really sit still, needs weighted blankets, has some of those unique arm movements of autistic people.. but again fairly subtle. A lot of things to him can be more black/white than gray, because he seems to need to fit everything into a very specific bucket in his mind.

Every teacher he has had, including some which work with the more special ed kids, has said "yeah there is... something different about him".

Now conversely, my younger child I would classify as "normal". Why do I say that? Well.. I worked at co-op preschools with both of my boys for years. I saw lots of kids. And when you see a ton of kids and play/interact with them... I mean yeah there is a normal. Normal is how you would expect someone to behave and interact with. There is a relatively normal way you would expect a 7 year old to respond in various situations, etc.

Anyway- sorry for writing a book. I guess I'm putting off work.. I just found it a bit strange to not accept that, well, most people are actually pretty darn similar while a minority of people are very different. I see it every day in my house!

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by danielg6 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @02:39PM (#20586899)
It’s just semantics. There are negative connotations associated with calling someone “normal” versus “abnormal”. I’m sure you’re polite enough to not describe people in wheel chairs as “abnormal”.

The non-controversial terms that people use related to issues like autism are “neurotypical” and “neurodivergent”.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by mrlala on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:06PM (#20587195)
>It’s just semantics

No it's not... I was responding to someone who said there is no "normal". Yeah, there is. Most people behave in a way you would expect. Most people exhibit motor controls the way you would expect. A minority of people, and specifically people with autism, really do think in a "different" way and exhibit strange motor functions at times that most people do not.

I don't think we have to dance around politically correct terms here. I'm using normal in the statistical sense. Statistically, most people are very neurologically similar and then some people are (relatively) wildly different.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by danielg6 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:19PM (#20587302)
> I’m using normal in the statistical sense

Which is semantics. You’re using a different meaning of the word to fit your point just like the person did in the grandfather comment. You even put the word normal in quotes yourself indicating that you understand how words can be interpreted differently. I wasn’t disagreeing with your interpretation of the term.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by navigatesol on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:22PM (#20587331)
>Most people behave in a way you would expect.

This is absurd. How do you have any idea what "you would expect"?

>I'm using normal in the statistical sense. Statistically, most people are very neurologically similar and then some people are (relatively) wildly different.

First, define "very neurologically similar". Second, "most people are similar" in a normal distribution because that's the way the distribution is defined. It's not some biological coincidence.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lazyasciiart on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:47PM (#20590366)
Even without being able to consciously explain their expectations, humans are often consciously aware when their expectations have been violated. Experimentally, there are lots of responses that can be tracked. Unexpected stimuli causes slower reactions, longer focus times, and stronger memories. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/tops.12292
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by navigatesol on Friday August 02, 2019 @09:47AM (#20592851)
I don't see the part of that paper that explains that people "expect" the same things; that there's some "normal expectations" in the population, which is what the OP is arguing.

There's a funny thing that happens every time an article on autism comes up on this site where a bunch of commenters state they have some degree of autism. This aligns perfect with the OP's argument: everyone is "normal", but I'm not. I'm special.

It's why "normies" is a thing. Everyone sees everyone else as "normal", but they're different. I wonder why that is?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by lazyasciiart on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:14PM (#20594665)
Ah, when you said > how would you know what "you would expect" I thought you were challenging the idea that people know what they expect from others. It sounds like you were actually challenging the idea that people can know what others expect?
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by roguecoder on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:31PM (#20671480)
Blond hair is less common in the US than autism, but it would be considered very strange to call brown-haired people "normal" and blond-haired people "abnormal".
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by dragonwriter on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:16PM (#20671674)
> Blond hair is less common in the US than autism

The stats I can find quickly suggest blond hair in the US is around 3%, and autism in the US is around 1.7%.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by munificent on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:48PM (#20589468)
> If you could create some score of peoples intelligence, how they react/respond to people, their normal physical movements and put that into a distribution the autistic people would definitely be on the tail end of the curves.

Some measurable aspects of human physiology and behavior would fall into a normal distribution (i.e. "bell curve") if you graph it, yes. Bell curves are common enough that there is a lay assumption that all distributions look like that, but it isn't the case, at all. Certain forces are required to lead to that flavor of distribution and in the absence of those, you can get graphs of all sorts of shapes.

For example, if you were to graph "how feminine" a set of people are, you're unlikely to get a bell curve where most people are androgynous. Instead, you get a bimodal distribution where there's a hump on one side for dudes and one on the right for ladies. In fact, graphs of height show a similar distribution.

If you graph how many fingers someone has, you'll probably get something closer to a power law where almost everyone is on the left at "10", a few misfortunate at "9", even few very unlucky at "8", and so on. (Plus a couple of odd points for polydactyly, etc.) This is the famous "long tail" you hear about in economics.

So there is certainly variation in all attributes, but that does not imply that the center of that range is the most populated. And thus, there may not be a "normal" in the typical "average and most common" sense of the word.

What does a normal set of genitals look like?

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by blueprint on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:28PM (#20588007)
Normal means conformance to e.g. a standard. Let's assume the reasonable communal standard of 'factuality', i.e. 'what exists in facts'. Individuals may not be able to tell with 100% precision about the entirety of a fact. But if we take some math problems like 1+3, 2+2, 5+5, etc., and have a person going around believing, teaching, and attempting to apply a different principle (equation, i.e. meaning/relationship of the numbers) then they're going to get different answers. It's wrong to say that 1+1=3 as if it's mathematics. Therefore, it's natural and consistent to conclude that a person who has the wrong answer or wrong view of questions cannot behave normally to those questions nor to the standard of 'what is' in the questions. Have you ever heard that angle on the matter?
Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by Zenst on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:14PM (#20586009)
Agreed and yes, normal is a perception based upon a mode average. After all, if the majority of people were psychopaths, normal would take on a whole new meaning.

Equally it is hard to evaluate such a different timeline as you are evaluating from a different perspective/timeline.

Re:High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism by technothrasher on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:33PM (#20586221)
Yes, you end up very quickly in Thomas Nagel's "What is it like to be a bat?" scenario. You can't ever know what it is like to be another person (or animal) because as soon as you are that other thing, you are no longer you. If you were still you, you wouldn't be that other thing so you still wouldn't have that knowledge.