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Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by throwaway13337 on Monday July 15, 2019 @03:57PM (#20444568)
Mobile free to play games now make up the majority of money made in video games today.

It's strange then that most of these games aren't that interesting. Who are the players of these that make up the new class of gamers?

It would seem that the payers are the exploitable - those able to be swindled with casino mechanisms.

As an ex- free-to-play game developer and one who believes regulation often does more harm to consumers than good, I'd like to see something done. I'm just at a loss for what would work.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by maze-le on Monday July 15, 2019 @04:38PM (#20444992)
I almost fell into such a trap before. I knew about the mechanics, but I was willing to give the developers the benefit of a doubt. And so I started playing, and after a while started to acquire shortcuts with money. Once, twice and at the verge of the third time, I realized what I was doing and stopped immediately.

The money you use is never much, but that is just part of the design to make you throw out even more -- a few cents here a few cents there and suddenly a sizable amount builds up.

Now I am 33 and have a bit of experience with addiction. That helps identifying these traps -- Dopamine kicks are always the same, chemically induced or by stimulating your brain with rewarding gameplay. But to be sure, would I have been born 20 years later, I would definitely be hooked on that particular game and still throwing money out for -- not much but a faster reward-cycle.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by nabergh on Monday July 15, 2019 @05:33PM (#20445500)
> I would definitely be hooked on that particular game and still throwing money out for -- not much but a faster reward-cycle.

Do you think that's an inherently bad thing? Maybe it was for you at the time but I feel like the ability to reliably turn money into entertainment (in this case "a faster reward-cycle") is a great thing to have available to people who already have their basic needs met.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by maze-le on Monday July 15, 2019 @05:52PM (#20445638)
No, not necessarily. It depends on each individual and the circumstances they are in. Its like with drugs, if you have a healthy social circle, a relationship / family you care about and a stable and productive work-environment, it will be a lot harder to get you addicted to the rewards of micro-transactions.

>> I feel like the ability to reliably turn money into entertainment (...) is a great thing to have

Yes, definitely. Each and every person can use (or learn to use) these games responsibly -- Not only games -- books, videos you name it -- like most people here I have a steam account, amazon prime, audible and a few other amenities where I wouldn't use my money in a compulsory manner. But a lot of free-to-play games have these little tweaks, that make it so very easy to spend money and don't even think twice about it. The occasional invite to start a transaction, placed at strategic "blockers" where you'll otherwise have to wait for 24h to advance can already be enough.

The crucial thing is to know about these mechanisms and have some sense of introspection into ones own behavior -- these skills can be learned.

EDIT: After I read some of the other responses and thought about it -- it is also important for us all, to acknowledge that some of these mechanisms do work like drugs -- neurochmically. And like with drugs prohibitions are counterproductive -- but a good effort in regulation might be a good step forward -- I've read very good examples in the other parts of this thread regarding a step like this.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by ACow_Adonis on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:24PM (#20445853)
Does it still look like such a good thing of you're already in a world that is capable of supplying almost unlimited free entertainment (or education, for that matter). I mean, I'd say the preference for entertainment over education is somewhat depressing/pathological, but let's leave that 'elitist' position behind...

In times passed we had a limited supply of literature, music, games, even god forbid, TV and movies. But these days we can put those on mediums that practically never degrade, and the rate of production has gone through the roof, and the producers of many of those goods are either dead and gone or there is no way to get money to them for their work, and we have the technical means to get them to whoever could want them at an almost zero marginal cost.

In that environment, a population that clocks time mindlessly feeding dollars to another party looks pretty sick. Which is, it would be my contention, is exactly what they are.

It is essentially the same as the old and uneducated who pump billions of dollars through the mindless gambling machines in my country. Not a image of humanity anyone would talk about with anything approaching pride/respect. Frankly, we should be ashamed...

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by ohyes on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:05PM (#20445738)
In that case, what’s wrong with heroine? You’re just sticking entertainment into your arm. (This is intentionally hyperbolic).

This issue isn’t really the money -> gratification conversion, it’s the addictive nature of the process. If I’ve done everything I can to addict you to my product (to remove your ability to decide for yourself)... I’m in a morally bad area.

I’m of the opinion that some of these addictive response patterns should be banned from games flat-out, whether or not there’s a direct connection to someone’s line of credit.

If heroine were free, it would still be a problem for those addicted to it, if not for very long. (Although no one would have a financial incentive to get other people hooked, so it’s an interesting thought experiment as to whether use would increase or decrease).

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by maze-le on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:23PM (#20445844)
That is a very bad example. In Switzerland, if you are a severe addict, you can get heroine in pharmacies. The most important restriction is that if you buy the stuff, you are also bound to go to a therapeutic clinic and have staff assisting you whenever you want to withdraw. There are also clean injection rooms and other social mechanisms that help you get off the stuff.

The result -- fewer heroine addicts, fewer drug-related crime, less active criminal underworld (because of lower drug-related income).

An adult discourse and proper handling of addiction and substance abuse not only helps the addicts, but the whole society.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by ohyes on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:38PM (#20445954)
I think that makes it an even better example.

Giving away the addictive thing you still have to pay the societal cost of having people addicted to it. Switzerland handles this is a very admirable way and they have excellent outcomes, due to treating addiction as a disease rather than an individual moral failing.

I don't see why substance abuse in particular should get a super-special treatment in our discourse on human addiction-related behavior.

If it's destroying your ability to function in society, and something that you might want to drop the habit of, we should support our fellow people in doing it. If that is gambling, video-games, porn, they all activate similar dopamine related effects. Heroine and other opiates are super-effective at this, but it is still the same pathway being activated.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by maze-le on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:45PM (#20446005)
Good response! See my updated/edited other post. You are right essentially -- these games can and sometimes do work like drugs -- neurochemically. And like with drugs total prohibition will probably make things even worse.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by chepaslaaa on Monday July 15, 2019 @10:03PM (#20446928)
The main problem with opiates in north america is that they're prescribed with no mechanism in place for withdrawing.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by joenot443 on Monday July 15, 2019 @09:48PM (#20446868)
I think there are plenty of companies who there who do everything in their power to addict people to their products. Whether it's moral is a completely different discussion, but I definitely don't think this pattern is unique to game developers.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by xg15 on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:10PM (#20445767)
Yes. First, it turns the game from an good or service I buy to enjoy into a glorified supermarket where I'm supposed to buy even more goods. This frequently ruins both immersion and gameplay.

Secondly, the developers now have incentives to make you spend as much as possible, which is why you'll frequently see psychological tricks to move you in that direction.

Even if the developers were completely earnest, the rewards cycle will cause craving for mire rewards and will easily keep one glued to the game longer than intended.

If I need to exert willpower to use a service "responsibly" while the service actually makes its money from people using it irresponsibly, the service probably shouldn't be used in the first place.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by patorjk on Monday July 15, 2019 @04:53PM (#20445161)
> It's strange then that most of these games aren't that interesting. Who are the players of these that make up the new class of gamers?

It's just one data point, but my mother-in-law, who's in her late 60's, plays a lot of free games. She did an audit of her spending last year and discovered she'd spent over $500 in Candy Crush (I think that was the game). She complained to them and they gave her a partial refund, though to my knowledge she continues to play the game. I would bet a lot of these players are less tech savvy older folks.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by BlueGh0st on Monday July 15, 2019 @09:59PM (#20446907)
What exactly does one complain about? If I complain to a movie theatre for all the money I've spent on tickets, they're just going to say "Um, okay..?"
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @05:41AM (#20448669)
This is a silly comparison. A movie theatre is an exchange of money for a one time service. Something most people understand. F2P gaming is something a lot more insidious. Like if the movie theatre was trying to nickle-and-dime you for a dollar or two throughout the day.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by blackhaz on Monday July 15, 2019 @05:35PM (#20445522)
How about a state regulation prohibiting stores to sell anything with real money procurement and trading mechanisms inside as games? Anything that allows in-app purchases or trade should be re-classified, a "trading platform," perhaps or, indeed, a casino? But then it would be up to society whether to allow their kids to play in a casino, or draw in a trading platform - where brushes have to be purchased. Squeeze those app business men a little bit. If Candy Crush allows to purchase in-game items, it's a freaking trading platform.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by sidlls on Monday July 15, 2019 @06:45PM (#20446003)
Most of these apps exist because consumers expect them to be free and refuse to pay even a little bit up front. This "freemium casino" model of monetizing games and other apps arose out of the feedback loop that started with cheap consumer driven development.

The consumer is not always right....

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by seventhtiger on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @01:50AM (#20447758)
This is because the platform holders have trained the customers to value the games at $0. Even a game with an equivalent experience to PC or console will feel much more expensive on mobile at the same price.

Apple and Google care about the attractiveness of the platform. They want you to buy the phone with the impression that apps are included for free.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by codebje on Monday July 15, 2019 @08:53PM (#20446637)
There's an interesting duality in that. Companies are choosing to maximise profits by tapping into addiction and gambling, and consumers are choosing to accept and reward that.

I don't agree though that there's only up-front payment or freemium options on the table, nor do I agree that consumers wouldn't accept up-front payment if that was really on the table.

Consumers paid up front for games on the Gameboy and other handheld devices, and they paid enough to keep that industry alive right up until mobile games took over.

Any expectations consumers have right now that mobile games should be free is on the publishers, not the consumers - and while consumers are enabling and supporting the freemium casino model, I don't think that us humans in aggregate have as much freedom of choice as we like to believe.

Regulation is the only way out of this bind, but with the continued rise of neoliberalism that's just not going to happen.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by plankers on Monday July 15, 2019 @11:43PM (#20447304)
Is the consumer expectation that mobile games be free on the publishers if they're responding to market conditions created by those same consumer expectations?

Seems to me like a chicken and egg problem where the entrenched nature of freemium games create a consumer expectation that games should be free up-front, causing consumers to avoid up-front payment, which causes up-front payment models to be less successful, which further entrenches the freemium game model, etc.

I agree with you on principle that it's up to publishers to make the effort to change this model, but I don't see how that could happen without some external nudging to overcome the market forces at work.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by LanceH on Monday July 15, 2019 @04:18PM (#20444777)
How about the app stores classifying them?

I've tried looking for games I could buy outright. Try finding a game without ads or in app purchases. It is extremely difficult to search by those criteria.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by codebje on Monday July 15, 2019 @08:34PM (#20446562)
I've been trying to find such games for my kids (4 & 6) - there really are no search options to help.

Indiscriminate third party advertising and freemium games are going to cause significant long-term harm to mobile gaming, and possibly also to society as a whole.

There's still some games out there that use IAP in small doses (<10 total) to sell reasonably sized chunks of content, but they don't make the money that freemium games do.

(My own device operates on the same rules as my kids - no third party advertising, no freemium IAP stuff. There's really nothing to miss in that space anyway…)

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by ajscanlan on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @09:21AM (#20449743)
Not sure about iOS but on the Play Store you can look in the "Premium" section in Games.

Not all are IAP free, but it seems most of them are.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by lozenge on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @03:53AM (#20448264)
Try searching the internet instead of those storefronts, you'll get more than enough listicles.
Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by beatgammit on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @10:15PM (#20466098)
I am interested in making games, and looking at market data, either you can build a good game and pray you get lucky, or you can make a much easier game and build in pay to win and hope you get lucky.

It's much easier to make a pay to win game, so I could try a few times more than by trying to make a good game off the bat.

People just don't like to pay money up front, so getting them to start for free and then adding in the paid features to skip past your intentional delays is a pretty strong tactic to get people to pay when they otherwise wouldn't. I just refuse to do it because I find it unethical.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by watwut on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @02:21AM (#20447884)
> It's strange then that most of these games aren't that interesting.

Most dont earn money. It is winner takes all market.

> Who are the players of these that make up the new class of gamers?

I am. A while ago I ditched "traditional" games entirely and are not coming back, ever. I played only mobile games after. Through it is less so now, I did not ditched them and are willing to continue playing them (unlike traditional that I have decided to not play again).

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by Rch_East on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @01:22AM (#20447664)
Start with why Nintendo games are non-exploitative: no microtransactions, and a single retail purchase.

Regulate children's games such that they must have a minimum price (eg. $4.99) and contain no microtransactions.

The same could be done with pornography: require $4.99/month as the minimum charge, paid via credit card, to access, and DNS ban all sites which do not acquiesce.

Re:'My son spent £3,160 in one game' by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 16, 2019 @05:44AM (#20448678)
> Start with why Nintendo games are non-exploitative: no microtransactions, and a single retail purchase.

On mobile this isn’t true. I worry that now that Nintendo has gotten a taste of the F2P riches via Fire Emblem Heroes these ideas will seep into other parts of the business.