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Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by pdkl95 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:07PM (#20412656)
> the dataset contained ... demographic attributes like race ... to predict actual work performance

Regardless of the original intent, that's a request to launder a protected class into an opaque "work performance" metric. Also, while they are not on the unfortunately short list of protected classes, using demographics like age is probably going to create similar discrimination problems.

If you want to know about job performance, use data that is at least theoretically related to someone's performance. While machine learning is going to find some sort opf signal in whatever pile of data you feed it, that doesn't mean it actually predicts something complicated like job performance. When you feed it a bunch of general demographics, it's going to find one of the signals that we know are present throughout existing demographic: the institutional discrimination and similar problems of the past.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by giggles_giggles on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:39PM (#20412995)
I spent the whole time reading the article thinking "so you got scammed by people looking to find a way to hide prejudice behind ML? What a surprise..."

Maybe the lesson here is that people doing unethical things will take the opportunity to do more unethical things, like not pay you, and it may well be in your self interest to apply your ethics when choosing a job? Upwork doesn't look great here, but seems like it's hardly the whole problem.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by hihi123 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:25PM (#20413476)
No, that's not the lesson. Upwork the platform scammed him, not the 'unethical' clients. The clients were looking to settle the bill.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by closetohome on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:38PM (#20416126)
I mean, the clients may be unethical too. But more in a not-hiring-minorities kind of way than a scamming-their-contractors kind of way.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bofadeez on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:55PM (#20416643)
That's a pretty wild assumption. They clearly were willing to pay.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by sterkekoffie on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:31PM (#20412925)
I actually thought that line was a joke when I first read it. "We don't hire non-citizens, Hispanic people, or anyone over 30" sounds a lot worse than "we evaluate candidates according to an algorithm trained to predict work performance."
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by cannonedhamster on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:51PM (#20413724)
Before tech I did a stint in recruiting. We had a client demand only "white sounding" names. We ignored that and provided any qualified candidate. They complained because they mistook the recruiters name for an applicant. We fired that client the same week. It was a truly disgusting thing to be asked and I'm glad my company made the right call. Any future client that asked that was immediate grounds for client dismissal, i.e. didn't require management approval.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by RobertDeNiro on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:42PM (#20416898)
I'm conflicted about this, on the one hand it's completely wrong, but on the other hand would a non-white person even want to work for them? In the end their own biases will cause them to fail.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by shims on Thursday July 11, 2019 @10:45PM (#20417675)
There are plenty of people who need to work to eat and can't be picky with employers.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by ergothus on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:20PM (#20412809)
Excellent point!

Isn't age a protected class though? At least in the US, discrimination over 40 is covered by the EEOC.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by gumby on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:47PM (#20413082)
They are protected against certain kinds of discrimination, but no human discriminated against them. It was simply a dispassionate algorithm and an algorithm can't display malice!

Grrr... or that's what they, and probably the courts, would say.

The OP calling it "discrimination laundering" had it right.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by lmkg on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:26PM (#20414050)
> probably the courts, would say

The courts are the ones that created the doctrine of "disparate impact." A criterion can be discriminatory even if it doesn't look discriminatory on its face. And, importantly, it does not require intent to discriminate, only impact.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by pkaye on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:57PM (#20413769)
I don't think you can use "no human discriminated against them" as a defense. It could still be constructive discrimination.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by roflc0ptic on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:35PM (#20412966)
I'm hazy on the details, but it's not a protected class in the same way that e.g. race is. In alleging racial discrimination (in certain legal venues), statistical evidence of racial discrimination is admissible, however statistical evidence of age discrimination is not. E.g. if there are layoffs, and every grey head disappears, that's not grounds to allege discrimination. You'd have to have someone on record saying "we're firing all of the old fucks because they remind me of the inescapability of my own mortality" to litigate.

Someone with a better grasp on the particulars here please chime in :)

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by sct202 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:01PM (#20413211)
Having race in the dataset itself might not be bad, if there was an expectation that the data scientist would use the data to check if the algorithm was biased in some way, but it seems like the customer was pretty terrible sooo who knows.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by opwieurposiu on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:47PM (#20413085)
If you think it is not possible for race be related to job performance you must not have watched much NBA basketball.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by komali2 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:42PM (#20413624)
You can't make effective prediction off this stereotype. It is useless.

There is nothing inherent in "being black" that leads to greater basketball performance. Also, define "black," good luck.

Being tall, maaaaaybe. But not perfectly so, and there's no useful correlation between tallness and race, considering that the NBA generally just selects for the most skilled basketball players.

Then you get into all the cultural influences that totally shoot any genetic arguments out of the sky, and really just makes trying to do any, uh, science, around genetics and the NBA pointless. In my experience (as a southerner) it's typically just a sort of dog whistle kind of psuedoscientific attempt to set the groundwork that race can be related to other things, such as likelihood to be a criminal, hence why I jump on this argument whenever I see it. Apologies if that wasn't your intent.

In short, "race" (good luck defining even one) is not related to job performance.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by brighter2morrow on Saturday July 13, 2019 @10:27AM (#20428210)
>There is nothing inherent in "being black" that leads to greater basketball performance. Also, define "black," good luck.

How so universities define someone as black?

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by komali2 on Sunday July 14, 2019 @04:36PM (#20435831)
By self-identification.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by MuffinFlavored on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:25PM (#20414040)
Aren't blacks genetically predisposed to larger twitch muscles (faster reaction times, etc.)?
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by komali2 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:28PM (#20414063)
Yea, happy to explore this.

First, what do you mean by "black people?"

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by cambalache on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:44PM (#20414233)
In America?, any person self described as one, or with a significant (25%+) component of the Niger-Condorfanian cluster as per [1]. I agree the definition is arbitrary but all definitions are. The same with "tall" people. We could discuss all day long who is or isnt tall, or we could define tall as being at least 6ft 2in or whatever.

[1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/324/5930/1035

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by komali2 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:07PM (#20414493)
This is a good faith attempt and I appreciate that.

First, from your link:

>Our data also provide evidence for shared ancestry among geographically diverse hunter-gatherer populations (Khoesan speakers and Pygmies).

Would we say that pygmies, being considered black, would be likely to make it into the NBA?

Second, can we guarantee that people who self identify black, would agree that the definition of someone else's "blackness" is legitimate? Whose definition do we "choose" to then move ahead with "and these sorts of black people are more likely to get into the NBA?" Given that it's not well agreed upon (is Obama black? Steph Curry? Not as cut and dry as you might assume. Are they "black enough" to have NBA advantage?)

Third, based on your tallness: why draw the line as 6'2"? There are shorter players that were Great. So, how do you deal with (relatively frequent) exceptions? "Tall people are more likely to get into the NBA, except when theyre short but grew up next to a court" ? And the tall People that aren't good at basketball? "Tall People are good at basketball except when they're not" ? And when they're too tall to the point that it's detrimental to their health and can't even play basketball?

Fourth, arbitrary. Exactly. It is arbitrary, and thus I argue scientifically impossible to have a rational discussion about blackness and its influence on likelihood to enter the NBA. Or, rather, develop an effective predictor algorithm based on genes alone.

We could have interesting sociological conversations about basketball courts in predominantly black neighborhoods, black NBA stars inspiring black kids, self-propagating cultural memes about blackness and basketball skills, etc. But we won't get any really good information that allows us to say something like "black people are better at basketball" to where it will be true.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by cambalache on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:10PM (#20415293)
I agree with some things you said others not so much. By the way, being this the Internet, I am not trying to push any weird racial stuff here, I am only trying to argue for the position you can operationalize the race concept based on arbitrary but objective genetical clusters in the human population. This can be useful for myriad things: Anthropology, population genetics, hereditary disease, diet requirements design, human evolutionary history, etc etc. There is nothing wrong with the concept that there are groups of genetic markers who are different among populations in the world.

Regarding pygmies, they are a different cluster from the highly homogenous cluster of Niger Cordofian from which current African American population in America descends. From the article I cited: "High levels of heterogeneous ancestry (i.e., multiple cluster assignments) were observed innearly all African individuals, with the exception of western and central African Niger-Kordofanian speakers (medium orange), who are relatively homogeneous at large K values(Fig. 5C and fig. S15).)".

I see you are also a bit disingineous if you dont think there is a high correlation between athletic abilities and genetics. Gimme a competent geneticist, 200 hundred genomes of 15 years old boys: 100 African Americans and 100 Guatemalans, shortest dudes in the Americas. I am pretty confident that I can pick 2 teams of 5 kids just by their genome and pick the correct winner of a basketball game between them with high probability. Yeah I cannot predict individuals outcome(yet) but population wise I think it is not a crazy stretch.

On the other hand I see your point that there is no crystal clear boundary between any human group, but if you take that position you have to be consistent with it. What I mean is that I assume you are not happy with an universal definition of black (I can understand and even agree with that). But then you are forced to admit the concept of White privilege is vague too. Same reasoning. You could say "White" is a cultural concept, but I could say the same regarding "Black" so we are back to part 1.

Again I suspect we have more points in common that differences regarding this topic, I just wanted to put out there some considerations.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by komali2 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:15PM (#20415354)
I don't have enough time to give you the response you deserve for the time you've taken, but I do appreciate your insight and will think on it.

As all parts of culture, the concept of white privilege is extremely vague, and I imagine white Milwaukee trailer park residents would be a bit offended to be lectured about their privilege. Hence why I would prefer we spend our time focusing more on socioeconomic factors of humanity rather than genetics - it just seems more useful.

I may return to edit this if I have time today but if not thank you for this discussion.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by dmcbrayer on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:20PM (#20416422)
+1 to both of you for having a polite and coherent discussion about such a divisive topic. I enjoyed reading it.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by empath75 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:24PM (#20416810)
Guatemalans are short because of chronic malnutrition not because of genetics. Guatemalans born and raised in the us are much taller.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by cambalache on Thursday July 11, 2019 @09:05PM (#20417278)
Perhaps, yeah they can add some inches with nutrition. They are still shorter than much poorer countries like Haiti. A rich country like Japan has a short average height so nutrition helps up to a point.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by empath75 on Friday July 12, 2019 @11:54AM (#20421605)
It’s only a couple inches shorter than Americans and a lot of that is still based on how much and the kinds of protein people eat.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by gurkendoktor on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:57PM (#20413171)
Or Sherpa people carrying luggage up Mt Everest...

There's a difference between acknowledging some correlations, and using them as statistical tools in the job market. The latter is thankfully illegal or at least frowned upon.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by DocTomoe on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:50AM (#20419030)
When they built New York's skyscrapers, they hired predominantly people from the Mohawk tribe to do riveting a three hundred feet above ground because they lacked fear of heights.

At what point does a correlation become useful as a statistical tool?

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by gurkendoktor on Friday July 12, 2019 @01:53PM (#20422766)
Every proven correlation is immediately useful as a statistical tool! But we also don't jail people when there's an 80% chance they're guilty. Not everything is about efficiency.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by 3131s on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:39PM (#20413591)
The best athletes are extremely intelligent and driven people. The over-representation of black people in athletics is most definitely related to their under-representation in other fields.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by cambalache on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:19PM (#20415954)
Nah, intelligence is orthogonal to sports skill, that is, it is not correlated. Plenty of dumb and smart sportsmen. Now, mental fortitude, self-belief, ability to perform under pressure, now those things I believe. But none of them are strongly correlated with intelligence.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by oh_sigh on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:01PM (#20414413)
Or it might just be because basketball is the preferred sport of a lot of black people in the US, so they are more likely to play it and become good at it.

If you look at hockey, it is mostly white. That doesn't mean being white gives you an advantage in playing hockey. It just means way more white people enjoy hockey compared to black people.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bsder on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:08PM (#20415862)
> If you look at hockey, it is mostly white. That doesn't mean being white gives you an advantage in playing hockey. It just means way more white people enjoy hockey compared to black people.

I suspect it's more that playing hockey implies a certain socioeconomic stratum (hockey is an expensive sport).

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by Baeocystin on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:24PM (#20415991)
You can play a pickup game of hockey with something to thwack around as a puck, a stick, and some skates, all of which are dirt cheap. I think it's kind of a stretch to make any socioeconomic predictions when the much simpler correlate is that hockey is cheap and easy to play (and thus will have a larger talent pool to draw from) when you live where local ponds freeze over in the winter, and those parts of the country are predominately white.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by ABCLAW on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:14PM (#20416397)
Did you grow up with any competitive-level hockey players?

The sport is a VERY large time and finance drain on a family.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by Baeocystin on Friday July 12, 2019 @12:17AM (#20418105)
That's a bit of a non-sequitur. High-end-competitive-level anything is a tremendous time and money sink. But that doesn't mean that the majority of the people that play the sport in question need to be wealthy to participate at the rec-league levels.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bsder on Friday July 12, 2019 @09:25PM (#20425932)
> But that doesn't mean that the majority of the people that play the sport in question need to be wealthy to participate at the rec-league levels.

Rec-league hockey requires an ice rink and time on it. Ice rink time is highly demanded and you may be getting it at 6:00AM or 11:00PM. You also need to coordinate teams at those times. And if you want any practice time-you may be getting that at 3:00AM in the morning (not joking).

And, for all of that, you get the joy of shelling out lots of money for the privilege of using the ice on the graveyard shift.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by masonic on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:19AM (#20419156)
ice hockey is very resource consumptive, both in terms of money and familial time) attention. Ice hockey requires both equipment and ice-time; both are costly and don't have parallels in other sports.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by sergioj97 on Friday July 12, 2019 @07:14AM (#20419806)
Why does it require more time than any other sport such as basketball?
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bsder on Friday July 12, 2019 @09:50PM (#20426026)
How many basketball courts exist vs how many ice rinks exist?

Practically every high school and elementary school has a basketball court--that's probably 10,000+ in Canada. It doesn't count any associated with public parks, etc.

Contrast that with ice rinks which are probably about 1000. You have at least a factor of 10 differential--probably more. In addition, ice rinks are vastly higher outlay to keep running.

So, that means real money to use the rink when using a basketball court is, at worst, a nominal fee. Longer travel to play against another team if you're in a league. Fewer coaches which need to be paid more. And, your practice times are in the "dead zones" from 11:00PM to 6:00AM in the morning as the ice rink is looking to make real money from 3:00PM to about 11:00PM.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by setr on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:43PM (#20414218)
Given how small a population “best athletes” is (..by definition), I somehow doubt this.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by masonic on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:18AM (#20419151)
I haven't read pertinent studies in awhile, but it used to be that all top sprinters were of West African ancestry due to a disproportionate amount of fast-twitch muscle fibers in the leg muscles.
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by MuffinFlavored on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:25PM (#20414048)
I think it is less "intelligence" and more "naturally physically talented"
Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bofadeez on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:36PM (#20416526)
"According to twin studies, the Big Five personality traits have substantial heritable components explaining 40–60% of the variance" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5068715/

Trait conscientiousness and IQ predict job performance. Stop being Luddites with this technology.

Re:Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork by bofadeez on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:34PM (#20416513)
It's a politically-motivated, Luddite-like mentality with respect to the technology available via psychometric analysis on identical twins.