News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by ralusek on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @04:15AM (#20333191)
I think that it's important for free market advocates, myself included, to understand something. Negative third party externalities, having direct impacts on individuals that did not consent to the responsible transaction(s), are fully within the responsibility of the government to regulate and/or tax. You are not violating your principles by backing state intervention for environmental issues.
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by spodek on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @07:58AM (#20334148)
Beyond not just "not violating your principles," it's necessary accounting. If the public pays for part of the costs of something -- say of cleaning up after extraction or pollution -- you haven't accounted for its costs.

Without proper accounting, unprofitable businesses can thrive and would-be profitable businesses fail.

No economic system can sustain itself without proper accounting.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by kenpomeroy on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:40AM (#20334838)
Even still, you're assuming the government has the ability to address climate change if given the chance. But, there would need to be global consensus and enforcement or government intervention could actually make the problem worse (e.g. heavy environmental regulatory burden means products get manufactured and shipped from Asia, and actually generate more carbon emissions).

Perhaps, free market solutions a la Tesla are all we've got?

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by mrpopo on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @09:47AM (#20334897)
> Perhaps, free market solutions a la Tesla are all we've got?

Tesla is still promoting the idea of the individual car, and that electric cars could replace the ICE car for each and every travel that it is used currently.

If Tesla is the free market solution, then be prepared to pay the bill for climate change.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by kenpomeroy on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:49PM (#20340089)
I said Tesla was perhaps "a" solution, not "the" solution. What alternative solutions do you propose?
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by mrpopo on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @04:33AM (#20342628)
Regarding transportation, it's in my comment. Put an end to the individual car and promote public transportation.

Replacing ICE cars with electric cars looks like it's better than nothing, but it's only gonna promote the business-as-usual mindset.

Today, even with limited electric car adoption, our energy consumption is growing faster than the production of electricity from renewables is growing. That means more energy from fossil fuels worldwide. We need to slow down until solutions are found.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by anonuser123456 on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:08PM (#20339834)
Maybe battery tech will continue to be exponential? Seems like there is still a lot of room at the bottom.
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by nwah1 on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:31PM (#20336722)
Tesla has benefitted quite a lot from government subsidies and regulations specifically aimed at encouraging companies like Tesla.
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by kenpomeroy on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:50PM (#20340098)
Fossil fuel companies receive subsidies as well, what's your point?
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by IAmEveryone on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @04:45AM (#20333332)
Indeed. It’s unfortunate that what was originally a belief in the superiority of capitalism to organize a society to everyone’s benefit has morphed into blind support for existing, large businesses.

The best illustration in recent history are probably the attempts to insulate coal power from competition by renewables. Really makes you wonder if people don’t sometimes look in the mirror and wonder “wait, how did I end up here?”

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by kfk on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @04:50AM (#20333348)
Advocates of real free markets want a carbon tax. Externalities are a real problem and there is a lot of economics research on how to deal with it. The issue is that “right wing” has passed to signify “liberal”. There is nothing less liberal, or capitalistic, than most of the current right wing parties in western countries.
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by chewz on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @05:03AM (#20333386)
Carbon tax is terrible idea. We have a science proving that it won't work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lucas_Jr.

Pseudo-market solutions do not work. They are quickly gamed by market players. It would be just a waste of precious time.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by llukas on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @05:25AM (#20333479)
> We have a science proving that it won't work.

I think physicists can say they proven something but it is in principle debatable. Economy is just witchcraft in comparison - please do not give economy more credibility than it deserves.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by TelmoMenezes on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:03AM (#20333646)
> I think physicists can say they proven something

Not even them. It only makes sense to talk about proof in formal domains such as math and logic.

Science proves nothing. It is impossible to prove that any given scientific theory will not be falsified in the future. In fact, physics was one of the main inspirations for the idea of "paradigm shift" by Thomas Kuhn in his famous work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions".

Talking about proof in science is damaging, and it conveys the wrong idea about what science actually is.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by belorn on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @05:26AM (#20333485)
Looking at (https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2207/economics/carbon-tax...) the primary argument against Carbon tax is that companies will somehow tax evade even more than in the past, and companies will move to more tax friendly companies than they already do.

Is there an argument against carbon tax that can't be said by any other tax?

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by DennisP on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @11:08AM (#20335847)
The easy way to implement a carbon tax is to tax at major sources, like coal mines and oil wells, and let the producers pass on the cost to everyone else. It's not terribly difficult to assess the amount of coal produced by a mine.

It's also fairly difficult to move a coal mine to another country. Of course, people could import their carbon-intensive goods, but most proposals include tariffs on countries without comparable carbon fees. Tariffs like these are explicitly allowed by trade agreements.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by chewz on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:39AM (#20333812)
The objective of carbon tax is to give incentives to market participants and let the market to the job. In my opinion it will result in creating huge wealth transfers with much real benefit to the climate.

I would rather side with Naomi Klein that capitalism proved ineffective in solving problems of this scale.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by anonuser123456 on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:16PM (#20339889)
So decide by fiat it doesn't work rather than run the experiment?
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by VorticesRcool on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @05:12AM (#20333428)
That link does not say anything about science or a carbon tax. What did that economist have to say about it?
Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by chewz on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:33AM (#20333787)
Lucas got Noble prize for proving that market participants game new rules faster then regulators introduce them.

Pseudo-market solutions in healtcare (pricing procedures with ICD and allowing market participants compete) are currently proved as inefficient. Net gain for market participants but net loss for people and goverment budgets.

So my reservation is for carbon tax as gigantic wealth transfer without real benefits to climate. I am not against urgent action on climate.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by graeme on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @07:45AM (#20334064)
Is a tax a regulation in that sense? I’m wary of non-tax responses to climate change for the reasons you suggest, I think they’re easy to game.

But with a tax you can only evade. The income tax still raises revenue and discourages income, even though it can be evaded and often is. I think a carbon tax would similarly raise revenue and discourage carbon, while letting us cut worse taxes like the carbon tax.

Re:Antarctic sea ice – rapid decreases, reduced to lowest ar... by Scarblac on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @05:34AM (#20333529)
Rationing then. What else?