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Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by microtherion on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @09:36AM (#20029849)
This seems to be in keeping with Google's "Moon Shot" philosophy — investing in some projects with potentially high payoff, but low probability of success.

If Tesla were pursuing a project like this, they'd probably announce that they were expecting all their cars to ship with cold fusion reactors by 2020 — and then start hiring a team ;-)

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by usaphp on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:23AM (#20031039)
I know you are joking, but unlike Google, Tesla at least tries to finish whatever they start and actually deliver stuff, while google quickly jumps the ship if the thing does not work out and abandoned all their customers
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by drewg123 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:46PM (#20032508)
As a Tesla owner, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to them delivering the Full Self Driving option that I paid for 18 months ago when I bought my car.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by BinaryIdiot on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:36PM (#20032986)
The worst part is, it doesn't seem like they'll be able to. I'm curious what happens if they ultimate need additional / different sensors to make it happen. Do they replace those parts for free?
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by microtherion on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @04:40PM (#20034159)
I also wonder whether the choice of sensor technology they already (pre-)SOLD informs Tesla's opinion of what sensor technology is NEEDED for Full Self Driving (Their view that LIDAR is not necessary seems to be an outlier in the industry; are we sure that view is not influenced by the sizable outlay they'd face for upgrading their previously sold FSD option cars if they changed their mind?)
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by drewg123 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @05:27PM (#20034589)
My understanding is that FSD will at least require a new computer module, which they are supposed to replace for free for those of us who have purchased FSD.

However, it is an open question whether or not it will require additional / different sensors (like lidar).

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by _red on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @04:05PM (#20033825)
A hypothetical:

You are driving your car and see that the pickup truck in front of you has an empty cardboard box in it (you can tell its empty by the way its floating around in bed of truck). Suddenly a gust of win picks up the box and it lands directly in front of your car. Its not very big, about 12 inches tall. Do you: (a) Slam on breaks? (b) Roll over it?

Now what will the "AI" in your car do?

Self-driving cars are not coming anytime soon. They are a whole slew of problems that you can intuit solutions to fairly easily, that are still beyond the ability of current tech.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by gliboc on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @04:47PM (#20034223)
I'm returning your argument. Imagine your are driving your car on the highway, but you suddenly have a heart attack and become unable to remain conscious. Do you: (a) Die? (b) Die?

Manned vehicles are not coming anytime soon. They are a whole slew of problems etc. -- you got my point.

I think focusing too much on pesky details is very much a fallacy in this case - you do not want an "AI" to react like a human in all situations, you only want it to drive in a way that is conservative enough not to endanger people too much. And we clearly aren't that far from this goal right now.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by perl4ever on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @06:45PM (#20035147)
"Imagine your are driving your car on the highway, but you suddenly have a heart attack and become unable to remain conscious"

Humans who drive cautiously may go for a million miles without an accident. The best self-driving cars (i.e. Waymo) disengage on average every 11,000 miles.[1] It seems to me that a disengagement is equivalent to becoming unconscious without warning, and presumably we both agree that a given human does not have a heart attack while driving every year.

Humans, even with all the people who drive drunk, or texting, or falling asleep, average about 80 million miles between fatalities. Going 11,000 miles between events of total loss of control is nearly four orders of magnitude worse.

[1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/02/13/waymo-to...

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by gliboc on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:28PM (#20042941)
It is an interesting metric, thank you for pointing it out. Until now I kept in mind the amount of miles between accidents, but surely both should be considered.

However, I think this metric could be irrelevant in the case of a home/work commute. The 11,000 miles average appears to have been obtained basically by randomly driving Waymo cars on Californian roads. But a usual commute is much less than 11,000 miles, and if your self-driving can do it by itself once then probably it can do it twice. As the article puts it:

"The value of the data is limited, however, as the figures don’t factor in the complexity of environments in which vehicles are tested–dense urban settings, versus low-speed suburbs or less complex highway driving–nor do they show conditions including weather, light or speed."

Nevertheless, you seem to have missed my point : I was arguing that coming up with a specific use-case example that may (or may not, actually) go wrong is an argument that goes both ways.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by vel0city on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @06:53PM (#20035212)
I've experienced much more soft debris fall from a vehicle in front of me on the road than I've had heart attacks at the wheel.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by robocat on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @05:54PM (#20034801)
That is a fallacious argument.

If we pick a hypothetical where a human fails and an AI doesn't, does that mean self-driving cars are ready?

Do you think human drivers are faultless drivers?

Is their a fair cost-benefit analysis for not wasting enormous amounts of collective time driving? (Driving is a very unproductive activity).

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by mejari on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @04:09PM (#20033865)
I'm pretty sure I remember a pretty large "this technology does not currently exist, may not be feasible, and may not be available based on local regulations" disclaimer on their sales pages, right? I thought they were explicitly selling the sensors that would be required if the self-driving feature was implemented.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by smt88 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:02PM (#20031418)
Alphabet doesn't seem to abandon moonshots as easily as it does consumer SaaS products like Reader.

They still have massive, on-going investments in anti-aging and self-driving vehicles. I don't know of any moonshots they've killed yet.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by wezen on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:42PM (#20032450)
> I don't know of any moonshots they've killed yet.

Google fiber is mostly dead.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @03:45PM (#20033632)
That one seems more like a fault of legal battles and rent-seekers.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by fooker on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:51PM (#20031919)
> I don't know of any moonshots they've killed yet.

Project Ara?

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by toast0 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @03:06PM (#20033266)
Has Tesla started delivering repair manuals and replacement parts? I keep hearing about Tesla vehicles at the body shop for several months.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by Analemma_ on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:41AM (#20031230)
The problem with Tesla is when they take your money promising to deliver something, when they can't. Full self-driving capability is never, ever coming to the current-gen Teslas, no matter what Elon says - the sensory capability just isn't there. Google at least says "we can't support this profitably, so we won't" while Tesla engages in fraud.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by ChrisClark on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:20PM (#20032840)
Never? Even when we've already seen it working?
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by stonogo on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:30PM (#20032932)
You've been told you've seen it working. You have not seen full self-driving.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by anthonybsd on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:57PM (#20033183)
You have? Care to share with the rest of us?
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jsty on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:09PM (#20031485)
Let's be fair, Google does usually deliver a working product, even if they take it away just as everyone starts using and liking it.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by devoply on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:35AM (#20031169)
Please don't call willing experiment participants customers.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by technofiend on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:16PM (#20031562)
>I know you are joking, but unlike Google, Tesla at least tries to finish whatever they start and actually deliver stuff, while google quickly jumps the ship if the thing does not work out and abandoned all their customers

I'm envisioning the Mr. Fusion in Back To The Future as a Google product. Surely it would fail the second it left that narrow 5-10 year window of support. Error: 403, Forbidden; the user is not authorized for trans-time operation.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by magduf on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:40PM (#20031800)
Sorry for the pedantry, but you're confused. Mr. Fusion had little to do with time travel: it was a commercial device which Doc got in the future, and which simply generated power from whatever you wanted to pour into it. Doc's flux capacitor is what allowed time-travel, and it needed a lot of power. So before, he had to either use uranium or lightning, but after installing Mr. Fusion he didn't need either of those hard-to-get things.

So, if Mr. Fusion was a Google product, as soon as McFly transported the DeLorean to the future (outside Google's window of support) and the onboard computer synced the time over-the-air and the Mr. Fusion updated its clock, McFly would be stuck in the future, though presumably in that time he should be able to find some competitor to Mr. Fusion which he could replace it with (with Doc's help; McFly never seemed to be very good with technical things).

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by nerpderp82 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:11PM (#20032102)
TIL, turn off autoupdates and clock sync when doing any sort of time traveling.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by technofiend on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:17PM (#20032815)
I was simply remembering the end of the first movie where Doc drops a beer can, a banana peel and so on into the Mr. Fusion so he can take Marty and his girlfriend into the future and joking when Doc ended up in 198-whatever Mr. Fusion would refuse to work because it was out of support. I think you're interleaving the timelines of later movies?
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by zamalek on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @10:39AM (#20030535)
Even if nothing comes from LENR, there were other interesting (probably not nuclear) things going on that have since been ignored because of the scientific taboo. The quintessential electrolysis experiment wasn't entirely inert, supposedly, even if nothing nuclear was happening.

Google could stumble into something very profitable.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:46AM (#20031279)
I am excited. Worth looking into. Even if it violates (current) physical laws. Potential payoff to big.

But I have also seen google projects that did not look scientific sound to me. Measuring blood glucose with contact lenses? How? Lag time is around one hour for eye liquid. Your are dead and the sensor does not know it yet. Your need to be below 10 min lag time.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by magduf on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:43PM (#20031819)
>Measuring blood glucose with contact lenses? How? Lag time is around one hour for eye liquid. Your are dead and the sensor does not know it yet. Your need to be below 10 min lag time.

Why? What if you don't care about having your blood glucose data that quickly, and just want to see the overall trend, even if it is delayed an hour? This won't help people who really need to be able to see what their glucose level is right this second, but for others it's a lot more convenient than having to prick yourself every morning.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:45PM (#20031855)
If the lag is one hour, you still need to prick.

If you want to see "overall trend" and don't care about any "lag time", just measure in Urine.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by UnFleshedOne on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:34PM (#20032377)
There is an enormous difference between ease of use of a contact lens sensor that you presumably wear most of your awake time and that gives you constant stream of measurements with 1h lag and urine test kit that you carry with you and with luck remember to use every few hours.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:53PM (#20032592)
Yeah. As a non lens wearer sounds pretty comfortable to me.

But if you have money I can offer you a non-invasive glucose measurement start-up with peer reviewed publications.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by magduf on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @04:29PM (#20034063)
I wear contact lenses. If I could instead wear lenses that continuously monitored my glucose level and it didn't cost me anything extra, and they still gave me the visual acuity of my normal lenses, why wouldn't I use that? I already wear them every day so for me, it requires zero effort.

Having to get urine samples regularly, or worse, blood samples, is a LOT more work on my part (not to mention painful for the blood samples), so it's not something I'm as likely to want to bother with.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @05:36PM (#20034651)
"it didn't cost me anything extra" Good luck with that.

How about people walking abound 24/7 with an anal plug?

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by magduf on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @10:52AM (#20040860)
Wow, that's an incredibly asinine comparison and comment. Millions of people walk around with contact lenses every day, myself included, and don't find them uncomfortable at all (or at least, much more comfortable than glasses). If they had an additional useful feature built into their lenses for no extra cost, I'm sure plenty of them would be happy to have it. If you don't like contacts, that's your issue, not mine.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by markrages on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:58AM (#20031390)
An idea that violates physical laws is just wishful thinking, no matter how big the potential payoff.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:33PM (#20031727)
You should study the scientific method. Nothing is set in stone, science is an evolutionary process. Even the scientific method itself.

If experiments violate CURRENT laws of physics, the laws have to be revised. Guess how we came to our current atomic model from the plum pudding atom model?

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by modzu on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:29PM (#20032324)
this is absolutely true, but, what drives experiments are hypotheses, not just wishful thinking.

a hypothesis is "a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."

it's arguable whether "is cold fusion possible?" is a valid hypothesis, because currently there is no accepted reason, evidence, observation, or starting point for that investigation. only the hope, the wish: "what if it was..."

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by jayalpha on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @01:51PM (#20032567)
Well, trust me, what drives most experiments is not hypotheses but "this is strange" results.

"it's arguable whether "is cold fusion possible?" is a valid hypothesis, because currently there is no accepted reason,"

I am not a nuclear physicist, but my chemistry is good enough to know that it should not be possible.

But take into consideration that Fleischmann was a pretty good chemist. Possible he fucked up. Looking backwards likely. But discussion is possible only based on date. Not believes what should or should not be possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleischmann%E2%80%93Pons_exper...

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by lioeters on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:32PM (#20032953)
Exactly! I think people forget that physical "laws" are mental models, working hypotheses that need to be constantly questioned, tested against reality and revised.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by grandmczeb on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:39PM (#20033013)
FYI that project was killed last year[1]. Also, like a lot of research projects, there was a lot of auxiliary research that could end up quite useful, even if the initial idea didn’t work out. For example, figuring out how to put an antenna into a contact, how to safely store power, etc.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Contact_Lens

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by shadowtree on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:13PM (#20031529)
Which Google moonshot has paid off so far?
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:32PM (#20031716)
The "Google Brain" deep learning research has probably worked out extremely well for Google. Self-driving cars seem pretty likely to make bank within a decade.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by v7p1Qbt1im on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @02:23PM (#20032864)
https://x.company/projects/

A couple of them. In terms of economic success they only really need one every 10 years too succeed as every one of them might be worth tens to hundreds of billions.

It‘s also a great way to find out what ideas don‘t work without too much risk.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by vidarh on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @09:38AM (#20029861)
There's an Iron Man story arc lone from a few years ago where Tony Stark starts a car company using his repulsor batteries as the energy supply..
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by thaumasiotes on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @10:41AM (#20030559)
Seems like a good example of https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUs... .

No one ever thought cheap energy might be helpful before a few years ago? It's still not useful outside of cars?

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by vidarh on Thursday May 30, 2019 @07:50AM (#20050214)
The story line actually covers it quite well in having him struggle with the thought of whether or not he can make them safe enough (e.g. he's other places talked of the battery in his chest having the energy of a small sun) to make them accessible.

The story line in question comes after one where someone has scavenged his tech from broken parts of Iron Man armor and used them in terrorist attacks, and at the same time as he's put together a purely "defensive" Iron Man suit for Pepper Potts called Rescue, and he decides to rebuild his company around civilian applications of the underlying tech,

Iron Man is actually quite interesting in that respect, as a lot of the story lines delve into him struggling with whether or not he should produce weapons to stop bad guys or come up with a design to find a counter to them before a bad guy comes up with the same design, vs. finding civilian applications without inadvertently handing bad guys new weapons. Some of those story lines make poor arguments, but at least the Iron Man story lines are trying unlike FF, I feel, where it's "let's whip up something new amazing before breakfast and then never do anything with it", while Tony Stark grapples with the issues of commercializing his inventions all the time, and often has to deal with fallout from it.

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by dwighttk on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @09:50AM (#20029959)
sometimes it seems as if Elon thinks Iron Man is a prophesy about his life...
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by chasd00 on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @10:14AM (#20030193)
an ex-gf of mine use to say Elon was an alien and needs humans to help him develop the technology he needs to get back home.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by arethuza on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:03AM (#20030815)
"They are already here among us – they just call themselves Hungarians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists)

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by cpeterso on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @12:47PM (#20031871)
Like David Bowie in The Man Who Fell to Earth (1976):

> [Bowie's character] uses the advanced technology of his home planet to patent many inventions on Earth, and acquires tremendous wealth as the head of a technology-based conglomerate, World Enterprises Corporation, aided by leading patent attorney Oliver Farnsworth. His wealth is needed to construct a space vehicle with the intention of shipping water back to his home planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Fell_to_Earth

Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by vidarh on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @09:54AM (#20029988)
In this case I think the arc is new enough that it likely was inspired directly by Elon.
Re:Google revives controversial cold-fusion experiments by JulianMorrison on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @09:57AM (#20030020)
Musk and Stark are coroutines...