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Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by gioele on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:18PM (#19993720)
If anybody is planning anything that combines laws, versioning/revision control and public access to legal resources, please get in touch with me. I have quite a bit of experience in that field that I'll be happy to share thoughts and talk shop.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by bytematic on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:28PM (#19993839)
I have been dreaming about a government system of laws that uses open source version control with a github-like ui, maybe even a constitution. If I had my own country, that's how I would do it.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by Hoeraun on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:14PM (#19994354)
Washington DC actually does use Github as the source for the city's legal code (and not just as a copy). I remember seeing this article on HN a while back: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/11/how-i-changed-th...
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by jon-wood on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:24PM (#19994443)
I have hunch that with the right NLP you could probably do this, at least in the UK. Every now and then I've looked at proposed alterations to acts of parliament and they've mostly been in a format like "In section 3a, paragaph 4, replace 'carrying a maximum sentence of 3 years' with 'carrying a maximum sentence of 5 years, and a sign in the town square telling everyone you're a bad person'".
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by dymk on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:30PM (#19993857)
I think as long as we base the kernel of the Government on Rust (for a fearlessly concurrent Government), we'll be in the clear. Also protects against terrorist memory tampering.

Congress could submit new laws to Blockchain to combat tampering and ensure proof-of-work.

My startup is working on Artificial Intelligence to predict laws that model cities like San Francisco or New York would want to implement in the face of acute social woes, so if Government 2.0 could provide a RESTful Lobbying API, that'd let the People move fast.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by scarejunba on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:36PM (#19993920)
Bit of an old joke, no? I think the "descent to the absurd" style here doesn't make sense because there is a concrete reason for what he's saying: lowering the barrier to suggesting changes in laws in a more structured form.

You could point to the diff and talk about it. Worthwhile, I think.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by dymk on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:40PM (#19993983)
Absurd? I'm just as serious about what I'm proposing, as I am about a "Github-like UI" for the foundations of our country.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by scarejunba on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:51PM (#19994108)
You're just being silly now. No one's saying "merge the PR to change abortion laws". They're talking about tooling to look at proposed differences clearly.

It doesn't seem absurd to me to have a diff, watch that evolve as new versions are proposed by people, and then finally watch what goes in. Obviously ground truth is still in the books, with laws debated in parliament or congress or whatever, but this acts as a shadow tracking that movement. Even if the act of passing were to end with a merge in of whatever law is debated, that's still hardly troublesome. It only increases transparency and doesn't remove any checks or balances.

Bit hysterical of a reaction for a rather minor request, in my opinion.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by dymk on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:01PM (#19994209)
You were able to discern a lot more detail from "Github-like UI" than I was, so kudos to you! I guess I'm just bad at reading into really presumptuous details like that when they're not there.

Interesting that you're calling me silly or hysterical for simply proposing a fearlessly concurrent Government built on Blockchain technology. After all, we're going for Woke Government 2.technotopia, not Broke Government 1.capitolhill.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:39PM (#19993960)
I have tinkered with a human readable, mathematically minimal, strongly typed language for writing laws/governments/constitutions.

I am highly confident it will work--the code and tech are there I'm just waiting for a strong project leader with good domain knowledge to lead it.

Shoot me an email if interested.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by nosuchuser2 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:02PM (#19994217)
How do you handle the fact that much law is intentionally ambiguous?
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:15PM (#19994359)
You want to reduce ambiguity as much as possible, but not eliminate it entirely. Still want judges!
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by umanwizard on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:26PM (#19996142)
This is the typical programmer misunderstanding of law.

In countries whose legal system is based on that of England (including most of the US), ambiguity is a design goal of statutes, not something meant to be eliminated. Statutes are supposed to be specified in broad strokes and then have the details hashed out by intelligent judges to work in particular circumstances that the legislators didn't envision.

And "the law" is not just statutes. Statutes are one small part of the law. Most of the law is the tradition of judicial interpretation of those statutes.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:31PM (#19996669)
> not something meant to be eliminated

I said exactly the opposite: "not eliminate it"

> Most of the law is the tradition of judicial interpretation of those statutes.

This is a very good point. You could simply have judges write decisions in a decision language as well, which is defined just as the law language is defined.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by umanwizard on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:48PM (#19996798)
> You could simply have judges write decisions in a decision language as well, which is defined just as the law language is defined.

But how could you write the laws in the first place? You can't write them in a language designed to be unambiguous, because they are meant to be imprecise.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:49PM (#19997154)
See basic example code: https://github.com/breck7/jefferson

There will be some ambiguity introduced via the English language (not a problem since you'd still have judges), but the whole thing can be defined, from concepts like true/false all the way to very complicated concepts, in the same universal syntax/language.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by empath75 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:26PM (#19997368)
and then you end up with grotesque injustices like mandatory minimum sentences.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:58PM (#19997522)
Huh?

You could define mins and maxes into the language, or even clearly and unambiguously leave everything up to the judge.

My proposal does not change the laws at all--what people create is up to them. All I propose is a language where the language itself cannot be used by the special interests against the better interests of the people. My language leaves corruption with no place to hide.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by umanwizard on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:31PM (#19996671)
Okay fine, let me rephrase. It is not something meant to be reduced.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:47PM (#19997144)
Thanks for the rephrasing.

I should rephrase as well. The language I am proposing offers much stronger control over ambiguity.

Take the 8th amendment: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

What is an "excessive fine" mean? In the language I am proposing it could be defined as is, or in something like:

... cellType dollarAmount number cellType fine dollarAmount cellType adjustedGrossIncome dollarAmount cellType universalExcessiveFineThreshold description As a percentage of adjustedGrossIncome constant .1 nodeType isExcessiveFine cells adjustedGrossIncome fine trueIf fine / adjustedGrossIncome > universalExcessiveFineThreshold ...

So you have more control over ambiguity.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by umanwizard on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:37AM (#19998519)
But that’s not ambiguity at all — “giving judges leeway according to parameters defined in advance by legislators” is not the same thing as “statutes being ambiguous”.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by _1tan on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:46PM (#19994042)
I have none of the above and would be interested nevertheless!
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by edmundhuber on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:42PM (#19994007)
I'd love to know more.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by breck on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:14PM (#19994352)
Okay I just posted some code: https://github.com/breck7/jefferson

I have a toddler in my arms and have to head to work soon but will answer questions/emails as they come.

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by nsriv on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:11AM (#20001056)
During my work as a legislative aide, I often thought about the benefit of using an almost Github-like system for editing, and making that revision history public when a bill went up for a vote. The requested edits would be issues, when incorporated they would be commits, forks and branches for and merges for committee deliberations etc.

I talked to a few people in NY State about it and it went over like a lead balloon, so I'm rest curious about your experience!

Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by neom on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:36PM (#19993932)
Please feel free to reach out! [email protected] - We build a apigee/mulesoft/domo kinda data management utility for cities, a lot of our recent research has been on api driven compliance as a service.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by jlelonm on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:40PM (#19994578)
You should write a blog post / do a podcast / similar! I'm very interested, but I'm betting that lots of people are as well.
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by ibeckermayer on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:34PM (#19996228)
Can you send me an email at my user name at gmail dot com?
Re:YC's request for startups: Government 2.0 by sillypuddy on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:34PM (#19996695)
Constitutional Amendment by PR? :)