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Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by rebuilder on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:07AM (#19988680)
I've been wondering - how much would it cost to hire people to subtly sabotage a large city in order to cause financial losses. Say you're a nation state and want to mess with your rivals. There's some optimum for how much you can spend to cause your rival to lose a dollar and still come out on top. That will depend in who you are and who your rival is.

It seems like it should be fairly good bang for buck, in this sense, to just hire people to drive around kind of slowly and badly. Nothing overtly aggressive, but a few dozen people driving slowly around a few select traffic circles around rush hour should really gum things up.

Even better if you can cajole some people into, say, pulling emergency stops on subways. Note I don't think that's what's happening in NYC, but this case does seem to show that a few people could cause outsized disturbances just by being assholes.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by viraptor on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:16AM (#19988717)
If you want financial losses, you're thinking too small. There's a ridiculous amount of infrastructure one can break. Mostly telco / power / water / ... It's a great testament to how people are mainly not dicks, given how everything keeps working.

Either they're the utilities are exposed https://www.businessinsider.com.au/ships-anchor-cuts-interne... or the overreaction is very expensive https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/portland-flush...

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by rebuilder on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:01AM (#19988911)
I'm thinking of a nation state wishing to avoid a major diplomatic conflict. So I think it needs to stay low-level, legal or minor infractions only, and of course deniable. Also if it's hard to even notice something's being done, that's a real plus.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by ozzyman700 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:19AM (#19990962)
SCADA systems running public utilities plugged directly into winxp machines that are on the internet is something I have seen in person for 5 different organizations.

the CFAA and foreign states not wanting to start a war is seemingly the only thing stopping massive grid failure.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by eecc on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:23AM (#19989023)
Heh, just take a walk around Shodan on interesting ports... the amount of infra that’s online screams criminal negligence
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:31AM (#19991039)
Major cities should probably be more worried about their own countrymen. If the "boogaloo" ever happens the power lines are probably gonna get shot on day 1.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by quickthrower2 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:35AM (#19988800)
The fact that it is criminal, possibly terrorism - prison or worse... might put people off too.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by viraptor on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:51AM (#19988865)
We're already talking in the context of: "subtly sabotage a large city in order to cause financial losses" so if it was beneficial in some way, I'm sure you could pay people off to do it for you. They'd either be aware it's illegal, (break this) or not (pee in this lake for $100).
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by wolco on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:57AM (#19988884)
The more people involved the greater the chance to get caught.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by onion2k on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:58AM (#19988891)
That only really affects the amount you'd need to pay to hire people. It doesn't change how hard it would be to sabotage the infrastructure.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by bufferoverflow on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:19AM (#19989327)
I remember a story of someone shooting industrial transformers. One bullet from a sniper rifle, and the whole substation is down, millions of dollars in damage.

Two people can rent a couple of UHaul trucks and block almost any highway. It will take hours to get the trucks away.

I also remember an estimate that ~10000 trained saboteurs can bring the whole country to a grind. It's quite cheap and fast to blow stuff up, and much more expensive and slow to restore it.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:28AM (#19991019)
>It seems like it should be fairly good bang for buck, in this sense, to just hire people to drive around kind of slowly and badly. Nothing overtly aggressive, but a few dozen people driving slowly around a few select traffic circles around rush hour should really gum things up.

I see this as a complete win. It would quickly result in cops aggressively enforcing the existing traffic laws that already make this kind of behavior ticket-able.

It will be a glorious day when driving like a slug carries more risk of being stopped and ticketed than speeding, rolling an empty 4-way stop or otherwise driving like a normal person.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by lelima on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:19AM (#19990961)
Well, one drone made a lot of financial damage in UK not so long ago, you don't need a lot of money to do a lot of damage, which is terrible.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by snewman on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:34AM (#19988794)
This was the premise of "The Cool War" by Frederik Pohl. It's been a long time so I can't remember whether it was a great read, but definitely an interesting idea.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by Someone on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:00PM (#19994808)
There also is Eric Russel’s “Wasp” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_(novel)).
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by baud147258 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @04:16AM (#19989620)
You can look at the impact of the various train and tube driver unions strikes in Paris, there's usually at least one every few years and the cost are usually in the millions
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by __m on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:58AM (#19989214)
You make it sound hypothetical, there seems to be a global war with pretty much every nation state utilizing this kind of warfare
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by SolaceQuantum on Thursday May 23, 2019 @10:00AM (#19991847)
I recall listening to either a video or reading an article but:

You can screw over an entire city for a week+ by renting a car, parking it in a particularly busy street, and then leaving it there. If you + a few of your friends do this, then you can gridlock the entire traffic flow of a city, as tow trucks cannot get into the area.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by mda on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:22AM (#19989012)
This would probably be classified as terrorism and have some dire consequences.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by luckylion on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:30AM (#19989060)
People driving slowly would be classified as terrorism?
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by goodcanadian on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:08AM (#19989276)
In the U.S.? If they figured out what was going on (a conspiracy to disrupt the city), they would definitely class it as terrorism.
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by luckylion on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:52AM (#19989493)
So all that stands between today and slow drivers having their doors kicked in by DHS is a manifesto somewhere on the internet?
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by Theodores on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:37AM (#19990392)
Recently we had that in the UK. A Brexit Remain demo was the main gig for the day and a bunch of Brexit Leave supporters did their best to do a go slow on the motorways, to cause traffic problems and impede the progress of those wanting to go to the demo.

The police were able to pull them over and sort them out. I forget what 'public nuisance' law they used, but the police have a wonderful set of things they can arrest people for. Breach of the peace, public order or a good one is conspiracy. Conspiracy can be proved in court but the act at the heart of the conspiracy does not have to be illegal. You could prosecute people for conspiring to share a chocolate bar in theory.

One law the police can truly hang/draw/quarter people for is arson. An 'accidental fire' need cost no more than a box of matches and can definitely sabotage a city. Hence the vast prison sentencing options. I lived somewhere where there was someone setting light to cars at night on our street, they got away with it six or more times and it was crazy how cars would explode the fuel tanks of neighbouring parked cars and melt the windows and guttering of the houses. We had pitchforks at the ready for kids from a neighbouring estate but it didn't turn out to be them. It just took one mentally ill person to put us all on this 'war' footing, suspicious of our neighbours and paranoid.

During the fun years of 'The War Against Terror' the government had to make the threat real with lots of terror drills and implausible scenarios. At one stage there were 'ricin' terror plots where some innocuous plant in someone's front garden was going to kill us all, there was another funny plot where the alleged terror operatives had bought several trillion smoke detectors to get the radioactive gubbins out of them and make a 'dirty bomb'. Obviously this would have killed us all but luckily the 'intelligence' services were onto the bad guys and 'saved the world'.

There was no foreign nation state doing this, the UK government managed to do it all by themselves. They even shut down London's Heathrow in one of these colour coded terror events, inconveniencing many but making the threat seem plausible if nonsensical.

Oddly the terrorists never had a plan that would actually work. There was always a flaw to the story, for instance the likelihood of being able to buy an absurd amount of smoke detectors or the realities of the ricin yield from the castor beans.

It was a bit like video games and movies where the bad guys are predictable and stupid.

Industrial action has been an area of subtle sabotage. In the UK this was a common thing in the 1970's. Cars would make it to the end of the production line with rattles and other defects that just made mass production a farce.

I think the CIA have a manual on how to do this, so a resistance movement in an occupied country can make things grind to a halt, just by being useless at their jobs, never doing anything that could be seen as 'terrorist'.

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by ozzyman700 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:23AM (#19990987)
Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by deadbunny on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:24AM (#19991512)
> It was a bit like video games and movies where the bad guys are predictable and stupid.

Four Lions[1] has you covered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions

Re:Someone in New York is pulling emergency brakes, destroyi... by odiroot on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:33AM (#19989075)
It has already been happening for decades. First Soviet Union then Russia paying various anarchist or extremist groups in the West to cause trouble.