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Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by qzw on Friday May 17, 2019 @01:17AM (#19936537)
You know, I would much rather see the super wealthy spend mroe millions on art than buying yet another super-yacht or Gulfstream. Art probably has a much smaller carbon footprint than most other forms of conspicuous consumption.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by michalu on Friday May 17, 2019 @07:07AM (#19938349)
I'd much rather see "super-rich" spend their money on whatever than supporting the greatest contemporary marketing scam called modern "art"
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by ahartmetz on Friday May 17, 2019 @09:51AM (#19939562)
Some of it does seem to express something that needs expression. But then you have bullshit artists like Damien Hirst who seems to know exactly what kinds of tacky garbage people with much more money than taste like to buy.

Sometimes I wonder how hard it would be to make a profit with art trading. I'm not that much into (looking at) art, but a little.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by nutjob2 on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:44AM (#19937554)
Don't forget, it also supports artists. I wonder if artists could sell art with a contract stipulating a royalty whenever it changed hands.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by bcks on Friday May 17, 2019 @07:04AM (#19938333)
The Artist’s Reserved Rights Transfer and Sale Agreement is a contract to do just that - for the artist to earn royalties from resale (if the price of the work has increased) and to have some control over public exhibition even after a work passes from owner to owner. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Artist%27s_Reserved_Rights...

It was first published in 1971. Needless to say, collectors and galleries don’t love it, but some artists continue to use it.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by m_fayer on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:03AM (#19937673)
It warps and stifles artists and the art world. An artist knows that only maybe 5% of artists manage to survive financially off their work, and maybe 1% become wealthy. Knowing that there is that lottery ticket, and that the odds can be boosted by catering to the whims of the ultra-rich and engaging in their cynical high-end social politics, that's hard to resist for many who are otherwise looking at being forced out of a beloved career or living in poverty. Many take the bait without realizing they're doing so, or somehow attempt to split the difference. Either way, it eventually causes some very fundamental psychic distress, and both artist and output suffer.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by osullivj on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:10AM (#19937707)
Is that so different from the world of startups?
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by lmm on Friday May 17, 2019 @07:36AM (#19938526)
Startup employees largely have better working conditions (even those who let themselves get conned into unpaid overtime) and softer landings. I remember a retrospective on a photo-sharing startup did the rounds a couple of years ago: it was a failure as a business but the developers were well-paid and able to walk into fresh software jobs at a good salary.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by osullivj on Friday May 17, 2019 @09:22AM (#19939312)
It was founders, not employees, I had in mind. It's a massive longshot, survivor bias clouds our thinking, and you need connections.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by m_fayer on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:52AM (#19937936)
At least we in tech can easily practice our craft outside of the startup world and remain financially secure.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by mensetmanusman on Friday May 17, 2019 @07:27AM (#19938474)
Not as much as you would think. Many paintings don’t gain huge value until after death, and many paintings don’t gain huge value until after the first sale (when the artist makes money).
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by nutjob2 on Saturday May 18, 2019 @08:30AM (#19947050)
Tell Jeff Koons that.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by theoh on Friday May 17, 2019 @06:15AM (#19938058)
This is part of the law in some countries. Usually it's referred to as Artist's Resale Rights.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by whamlastxmas on Friday May 17, 2019 @12:17PM (#19940985)
I would rather see tens or hundreds of millions spent on a project that employees hundreds or thousands of people for years. Buying art is just money changing hands between rich people.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by bluecalm on Friday May 17, 2019 @01:29AM (#19936596)
It's not like anything is wasted either. It's just an exchange of resources. The world doesn't become poorer when someone buys a painting for 9 figures.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by yeahitslikethat on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:22AM (#19937128)
It does actually because they didn't pay people who will spend it with that money, as in workers. Is just rich people exchanging it.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by kaffeemitsahne on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:45AM (#19937563)
All this money kept out of circulation leads to an increase in purchasing power of all the other money in the world. A bit like when the KLF burned a million quid.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by fifnir on Friday May 17, 2019 @07:33AM (#19938508)
Give me 90% of your $100, it'll increase your 10 dollar's buying power
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by simonh on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:40AM (#19937243)
Suppose there are two possibilities. The transaction could occur, or it could not occur. If the transaction occurs, how does the world 'actually' become poorer as you assert? What's the mechanism that takes value from other people, or otherwise harms them, when this transaction occurs?
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by yeahitslikethat on Friday May 17, 2019 @09:13AM (#19939233)
It's about the other options for the money other then art. If they had hired people to work, the world would be richer.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by bluecalm on Friday May 17, 2019 @02:58PM (#19942449)
They can still hire people and pay them. The situation is the same as before the translation it's just another person with 100m now and a different one with a painting. There is no waste there.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by bluecalm on Friday May 17, 2019 @02:56PM (#19942437)
But the money didn't disappear either. Now the person that got the money can do that. If the money is kept from circulation for a long time that's obviously good for everyone else as more their purchasing power for things like homes and food increases.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by rawTruthHurts on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:36AM (#19937845)
An exchange of processed resources, which is where the wastage goes.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by danieltillett on Friday May 17, 2019 @02:25AM (#19936797)
Actually its doesn’t matter as any dollar spent by the rich will filter down through the economy and ultimately end up with a near identical carbon footprint.

It would only be if the rich spent their money directly on subsiding fossil fuels would it make any difference.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by onion2k on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:00AM (#19937001)
Actually its doesn’t matter as any dollar spent by the rich will filter down through the economy and ultimately end up with a near identical carbon footprint.

Imagine two billionaires buying a painting from one another, and just swapping it back and forth between their mansions. How does that dollar spent leave that closed system? It doesn't. They might pay people to move their precious painting, pay for insurance, and alarms, but the painting itself is a fixed store of value. That value is never doing to trickle down.

Large amounts of wealth will never leave the pockets of rich people unless they spend on investing or buying newly created assets (like Gulfstreams). Rich people buy investment art because it keeps their money in their own pockets.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by simonh on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:34AM (#19937212)
The Billionair example is no different if it's a company stock being bought and sold back and forth, in terms of exchange of value.

Like any other investment class it's a leaky system. When a collector bought Girl With Baloon/Love is in the Bin for £1m at auction that money went to Banksy, to be spent on whatever Banksy spends money on.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by onion2k on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:45AM (#19937272)
When a collector bought Girl With Baloon/Love is in the Bin for £1m at auction that money went to Banksy, to be spent on whatever Banksy spends money on.

This is exactly the point I was making - when someone buys a new thing the money circulates in the economy. They (sort of, in the case of Banksy) paid for it to be made. They created work. When it's just two rich people buying existing things from one another the money doesn't leave that loop, no additional work is done, and there's no real benefit to the economy.

To be honest I'm just making a pedantic point about Daniel's post where he said every purchase trickles down eventually. That's just not true in a small number of very high value purchases like art. If you've got buckets of cash it's better for the economy to buy a shiny new yacht instead of a painting. Nice problem to have I guess.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by danieltillett on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:19AM (#19937420)
In practice, inflation of an asset class like art always leaks out into the general economy, but let's say the dollars that go into art stay in art and never leave. This is equivalent to just pulling the dollars out of the economy which is deflationary. In an economy where new dollars can be created at will the dollars removed will be replaced by new government dollars and spent.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by yeahitslikethat on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:20AM (#19937118)
Asset tax? Why don't we have that?
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by simonh on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:38AM (#19937233)
Aside from the tracking issue, many assets are extremely difficult to price at market value. Even if you could suppose the value goes up, they pay tax, then the value goes down? There would be horrendous market distortions from a scheme like this, and a flight of capital from the jurisdiction implementing it.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by nutjob2 on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:42AM (#19937539)
The Netherlands has an asset tax, and it doesn't seem to have that much difficulty with it economically. I suspect your difficulties are overstated and it's roughly no more bothersome than other forms of taxes.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by simonh on Friday May 17, 2019 @08:13AM (#19938740)
Interesting, it seems to only include fairly easily valued assets which can generate an income such as property and equity. Actually art works under such a scheme would be even more attractive as stores of value, not less, which could be seen as one of the market distortions I was talking about.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by B1FF_PSUVM on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:07AM (#19937694)
Just use the insurance value. Make insurance companies report it, done.
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by teh_infallible on Friday May 17, 2019 @03:31AM (#19937194)
Because it would necessarily involve tracking everything everyone owns?
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by B1FF_PSUVM on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:14AM (#19937725)
Or just the insured stuff, from the horse's mouth - insurance companies can spit out database reports to the tax authority.

They could even add the tax amount to the premium and collect both.

Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by nutjob2 on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:47AM (#19937580)
Income taxes don't require tracking income, so why would it be necessary for assets?
Re:How Contemporary Art Became a Fiat Currency for the World... by kkarakk on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:29AM (#19937468)
a usecase where blockchain makes sense? what? <surprised pikachu face>