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Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:42AM (#19898232)
If someone consents to have sex only on the condition of protection from disease and pregnancy, and you trick them into sex without a condom that is rape.

There may be differences of degrees to the stereotypical violent behind-the-bushes rape. Those should and would be considered for purposes of sentencing. But it's still rape.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by tomp on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:52AM (#19898316)
Does the law actually say so? To what extent does "rape by lying" exist? I imagine "I'm actually not a doctor" or "let me just remove my makeup" don't count... How about not paying a prostitute after sex (assuming prostitution is legal), does it count as rape (she consented to sex on the condition of paying) or just theft? Are women that say they're on the pill but aren't, or that use the man's sperm to impregnate themselves after sex, rapists (edit: note that child support payments belong to the child, so rape victims still have to pay child support, no matter how unfair that might seem, although the rapist being jailed would still offer at least some satisfaction and dis-incentivize future crimes)?
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by droithomme on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:19AM (#19898943)
> Are women that say they're on the pill but aren't, or that use the man's sperm to impregnate themselves after sex, rapists

This is a very interesting scenario you bring up.

Anna and Bob agree to have sex. Anna would prefer without a condom, Bob insists they must have a condom. Anna sabotages the condom by poking a pin through the package. They have consensual sex with the condom, which unbeknownst to Bob has a hole placed there by Anna. Anna becomes pregnant. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested? If Anna leaves the country, should she be extradited to face justice?

And does this only matter for a particular kind of birth control? Anna tells Bob she is on the pill but she is not. Bob consents only on the condition that Anna is on the pill. They have sex. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested?

What about sex conditions not related to birth control? Bob agrees to sex with Anna only on the condition he be allowed to wear his warm wool socks to bed. During sex, Anna finds the socks to be scratchy and pulls them off. Is it an absolute unquestionable legal fact that Anna raped Bob? Should Anna be arrested?

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by ahakki on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:17AM (#19899442)
In Switzerland it definitly would not count as rape by Anna (men cannot be raped here, only sexually abused (same max prison time, but rape carries a mandatory minimum of one year)). But she would be liable for the financial damage caused to Bob (child support, lost income, anything you can think of).

There is a famous case before the highest court, where a doctor, after forgetting to perform a sterilization a patient requested together with the caesarian birth of her second child, was deemed liable for the financial loss incurred by the existance of her third child.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by kweks on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:42AM (#19898664)
It exists very clearly (but it does have limited scope..)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by gsnedders on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:56AM (#19898350)
> Does the law actually say so?

Assange argued that the accused act would not be illegal under English law; the High Court disagreed (and hence the dual criminality test was fulfilled).

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by tomp on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:58AM (#19898366)
Which accused act? sex with a sleeping person or sex after sneakily removing the condom?
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by gsnedders on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:06AM (#19898418)
All four offences, including those two.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by DanBC on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:44AM (#19898675)
The case has been linked elsewhere in this thread. Ctrl F for BAILII to find it.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by reitzensteinm on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:49AM (#19898714)
You are comparing apples to oranges.

Misleading in order to obtain consent is not the same as getting consent for activity A then undertaking activity B.

In the first instance one can complain that they wouldn't have given consent had they known the truth. In the second instance consent was not given.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by tomp on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:04AM (#19898808)
I think it depends what you define as "activity". If activity is sex, then you consent to sex, and you're yourself responsible if your partner is wearing a condom or not. Or activity could be sex with a condom or sex with a partner who's on birth control etc.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by olalonde on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:49AM (#19898287)
> If someone consents to have sex only on the condition of protection from disease and pregnancy

I had sex with a girl who lied about being on birth control. Was I raped?

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by saagarjha on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:59AM (#19898370)
I would say so: you only provided consent under certain conditions, but these ended up being violated.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by buttcoinslol on Monday May 13, 2019 @01:27PM (#19901535)
A minor difference: if you want to manage your own risk, you should assume could be lying about taking a birth control pill, whereas you can easily verify someone is wearing a condom.

If I was uncertain whether someone was truly on the birth control pill, I would insist upon condoms if I wanted to fully hedge my risk.

I do see the point you're trying make, but it's a complex issue. I could easily make an argument for the opposite case, that it is rape. But I think being able to verify a condom is being worn makes the situation different enough to treat differently from lying about being on the pill.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by burfog on Monday May 13, 2019 @03:02PM (#19902703)
In some places, the law would call that "rape by deception".
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by pluma on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:29AM (#19917712)
I would say it's not rape but it's definitely a con and should be illegal.

The difference between being tricked into impregnating and being tricked into being impregnated is that impregnation only affects the bodily autonomy of the person being impregnated. There are other consequences and many of them are shared by both persons but the bodily autonomy part is present on in one.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by lostjohnny on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:07AM (#19898433)
(I see what you did there)

There's a little difference, you wouldn't be the one getting pregnant.

It's more like she lied about being HIV positive.

That is, in fact, a crime.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by eloff on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:17AM (#19898502)
She can get pregnant and use the courts to force you to pay child support for the next 18 years. I'd say it's no less serious.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by squarefoot on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:06AM (#19898830)
That is a well known "business" in some places.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by lostjohnny on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @05:24AM (#19907984)
That says a lot about how foolish men are in those "business" places, assuming they even exist...
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by lostjohnny on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @05:23AM (#19907980)
She can't get pregnant.

You can make her pregnant.

If you don't want to risk it, use a condom.

Is it so hard?

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by wtdata on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:06AM (#19898824)
That would mean that a woman lying about being on the pill in order for a men to agree to have sex with her, would also constitute rape from her part.
[dead]
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by lostjohnny on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:09AM (#19898445)
How so?
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by rich-tea on Monday May 13, 2019 @01:34PM (#19901614)
I refer you to the children's story "Crying Wolf".
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by lostjohnny on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @05:22AM (#19907968)
That's not what the story talks about.

Do you remember it?

First of all the story is titled "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"

But, most importantly, the boy was "crying wolf" when there was no wolf.

Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:19AM (#19898508)
"the few genuine victims of rape" kinda gives away your attitude on the subject. At least you know that this sort of misogyny isn't well received in polite company and decided to create a new account for it.
Re:Sweden reopens Assange rape investigation, to seek extrad... by snvzz on Monday May 13, 2019 @11:09AM (#19900026)
Why would it be misogyny rather than misandry or both?