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Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ebg13 on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:16AM (#19858083)
All questions of its own merits aside, how is Bitcoin still worth anything at all after so many hacks? Isn't a large part of value the security to know that you'll actually be able to realize it?
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by Crosseye_Jack on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:30AM (#19858178)
Its not the underlining security of bitcoins block chain that keeps getting hacked but the exchanges that do. (though there have been a couple of cases where things messed up for example https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Value_overflow_incident )

Think of it a bit like this. Treat Bitcoin like the Dollar and the Exchanges like banks. The underlying value of the dollar isn't so badly effected because bank robberies happen.

Instead of Storing your money in your own personal vault, people are storing their money in the banks vault(s) because it allows for more convenient usage of your funds. Instead of having to unlock your own safe, deposit what you took out your own vault into a bank and then drive to the store to do your shopping and pay on your card, you can go right to the store as you already have your funds in the bank (Bit of a shit anagogy as this would be more fitting if the store didn't accept cash, only plastic).

To get a quicker exchange of bitcoin to other coins / cash and back again (and have lower fee's), people are storing their coins in the exchanges wallets instead of their own. Instead of breaking into thousands of peoples homes and breaking into everyone's vault in turn, Hackers are targeting the exchanges as its a single place storing large amounts.

EDIT: Tweak a few bits of wording. I'm blaming the lack of coffee :-P

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ckastner on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:31AM (#19858617)
> The underlying value of the dollar isn't so badly effected because bank robberies happen

Since you and a number of other sibling comments have raised this point: This comparison is poor.

There are tens of thousands (probably even hundreds of thousands) of banks worldwide, each of which hold only a literally trivial fraction of their assets in (robbable) cash.

That's why bank robberies don't matter.

In contrast to that, a substantial fraction of total Bitcoin transactions are handled by just a handful of exchanges, each of which have a substantial amount of their assets in hackable digital form.

Bank of America has $2.34 trillion dollars in assets. If they had that in robbable cash, in one place, then it's safe to say bank robberies would matter.

Edit: My number of banks worldwide is way off as I was thinking in terms of banking licenses, whereas for bank robberies, it's the physical branches that should be counted. In that case, there are about 80.000 banks in the U.S. alone.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by Crosseye_Jack on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @10:00AM (#19858851)
> There are tens of thousands (probably even hundreds of thousands) of banks worldwide, each of which hold only a literally trivial fraction of their assets in (robbable) cash.

Binance said that the coins were taken from their hot wallet and not their cold wallets. It could be said that separating these wallets (if done correctly) is removing the vast majority of their assets from the "robbable on site cash".

> Bank of America has $2.34 billion dollars in assets. If they had that in robbable cash, in one place, then it's safe to say bank robberies would matter.

Exchanges (imo) need to adopt the same security measures as retail banks do. Multiple cold wallets (Like how there are multiple cash depots in the banking system) and multiple hot wallets (like how there are multiple branches of a single retail bank).

I'm not trying to defend the security practices of exchanges at all (imo, a lot of them to it in a very poor manner). And not saying bank robberies don't matter (Didn't the price of BTC dip after the mtgox hack?) but that with the right practices in place a robbery shouldn't matter too much. Which if the CEO of this exchange is to be believed the lost coins will be replaced from their "rainy day fund". (Though I'm always skeptical that such funds do infact exist)

My point is, the underlying security of bitcoin isn't what keeps getting hacked. But the security of the exchanges holding said coins.

Note: I'm not a Bitcoin "supporter" (the power usage for transactions alone blow my mind) though I do see the value of a decentralised payment system removing the ability to have your payment platform taken away from you because your thought process doesn't align with the gatekeepers (Example: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mastercard-activist-sharehold... )

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by alcio on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:57AM (#19858381)
How is the USD worth anything after some many bank robberies?

Bitcoin itself worked as expected, and the fact that no one can easily reverse transactions is one of the features described in the original whitepaper:

"Transactions that are computationally impractical to reverse would protect sellers from fraud, and routine escrow mechanisms could easily be implemented to protect buyers"

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by simiones on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:57AM (#19858831)
> How is the USD worth anything after some many bank robberies?

Well, because in bank robberies, it is the bank losing money, not the customers - this is exactly what bitcoin is missing.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by lawn on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:22AM (#19859661)
No, it is in fact the exchanges that are losing money. In this case the customer funds are insured and they will not lose any funds.

> this is exactly what bitcoin is missing

What you mean to say is this is what many cryptocurrency exchanges are often missing, which I agree with.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ForHackernews on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:33AM (#19859794)
They're not really insured: the exchange has claimed they have a self insurance fund (they call it 'SAFU') that they will draw on to make their customers whole. We'll see if that happens.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by DJBunnies on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:22AM (#19858120)
Bitcoin was not hacked. A 3rd party holding users' keys was hacked. Bitcoin still has value because it has characteristics that nothing else does.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by sschueller on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:57AM (#19858377)
How is the USD still worth anything with the incredible amount that has been printed? The fed chair himself said we can just print more money if we need it. [2] No other country can do that without going into hyperinflation.

"$12 billion in U.S. currency was transported from the Federal Reserve to Baghdad in April 2003 and June 2004, where it was dispensed by the Coalition Provisional Authority. A Vanity Fair magazine report concluded that of this sum, "at least $9 billion has gone missing"" [1]

$12 Billion in cash!!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_misappropriatio...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6vi528gseA

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:29AM (#19858608)
> No other country can do that without going into hyperinflation.

That's simply false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#After_2007

Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, the UK, the Eurozone...

The EU injected €2.4 trillion in this fashion over a four year period. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ecb-money-p...) $12B is nothing.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by SilasX on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:24AM (#19858562)
Upvoting because that incident is interesting, but this is false:

>No other country can do that without going into hyperinflation.

Other CBs have significant enough credibility or special situations where they can print comparable money without setting off hyperinflation. Definitely Japan's and probably Europe's.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ForHackernews on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:29AM (#19859743)
Not that $12 billion cash isn't a lot of money, but just to put things in perspective, the US government was spending about $20 billion per year just on air conditioning: https://www.npr.org/2011/06/25/137414737/among-the-costs-of-...

It turns out warfare is extremely expensive (see also: guns v. butter) and one of your line items is buying off local warlords.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by Dirlewanger on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:26AM (#19858591)
It's still worth something because the federal government says it's worth something. That's what a fiat currency is.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:41AM (#19859898)
That's not at all how it works. Zimbabwe and Venezuela's federal governments claimed their currencies were worth something until they were blue in the face.

It's worth something because the people using it feel it's worth something, and that's true for non-fiat currencies as well. Bitcoin and gold are non-fiat, but still heavily depend on demand to determine their value.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by magashna on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:26AM (#19858148)
you're blaming the currency for the bank's lax security. It's like denouncing USD for wire fraud
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by fgkramer on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:27AM (#19858150)
How are dollars worth anything after all the bank robberies across the years? :)
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by jcranmer on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:49AM (#19858312)
This one heist of bitcoins is more than the total sum of money stolen from US banks in 2011. (Source: https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/bank-crime-s...). It looks especially bad because about 20% of the stolen money from bank robberies is recovered, instead of lost for good; I don't know how much of Bitcoin heists are repatriated, but I suspect the percentage is much closer to 0%.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ShorsHammer on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:03AM (#19858426)
$1 billion Euro was stolen by a single gang from ATM's last year.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/mastermind-behin...

$1 Billion stolen from a Bangladeshi Bank

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery

MoneyTaker operated silently for years without being caught stealing millions from US and Russian banks.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cyber-banks-atm/hackers-h...

Conflating physical bank heists made by desperate people and sophisticated cybercrime is disingenuous.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @09:34AM (#19858640)
> $1 Billion stolen from a Bangladeshi Bank

No. Most of it never went out, and much of what did was recovered.

"The Federal Reserve Bank of New York blocked the remaining thirty transactions, amounting to $850 million, due to suspicions raised by a misspelled instruction. All the money transferred to Sri Lanka has since been recovered. However, as of 2018 only around $18 million of the $81 million transferred to the Philippines has been recovered."

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by alcio on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:58AM (#19858392)
Swift lost at least $85M in 2016, and that was only 1 partial attack. Had it went fully through, hundreds of millions would have been robbed.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by gimmeThaBeet on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:36AM (#19858216)
uh, insurance?
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by fgkramer on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:43AM (#19858266)
I was just using a simple analogy to explain that currency != exchangers
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by __s on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:41AM (#19858253)
How are dollars worth anything after all the extortion of insurance?
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by dractori on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @10:01AM (#19858868)
A small number of people control a huge percentage of the market and have a vested interest in prices always going up.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by 0x54D5 on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:20AM (#19858107)
Bitcoin itself wasn't hacked. They stole the keys from a server most likely.

I don't think it's possible to harden a modern OS against some potential hacker on the internet. Especially when we know that 0-days are sold and traded. So the idea of putting $41m worth of Bitcoin in a single wallet is frankly frighting to me. We saw what happens with pwn2own. Now scale that up a few million USDs.

Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by repomies68 on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:23AM (#19858131)
Well if 7000 stolen from hot wallet is something like 2% of assets and rest is in cold storage, then the risk is manageable. However I agree that 7000 BTC is a lot even if you are running a huge exchange.
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by repomies68 on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:19AM (#19858100)
Well the thief didn't touch any other cryptocurrencies that were on binance. What do you think is more valuable, a currency that thief wants a lot or one that they don't want?
Re:Binance exchange hackers steal bitcoins worth $41m by dylkil on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @08:21AM (#19858114)
These hacks are only possible becuase of poor security on centralized exchanges. With p2p trading you dont have this problem.

Theres a common saying in bitcoin communities - "Not your keys, not your coins". Never leave bitcoin on an exchange with a third party. In this case though binance will have to reimburse their customers.