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Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by carbocation on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @10:43AM (#1983270)
I'm going to try to articulate a position that I think that I understand but is not mine, so please bear with me.

Let's put aside what is "legal" and focus on what is "socially desirable" business behavior from the perspective of Anon. MasterCard, as a private entity, has wide leeway in how it chooses to deal with other private entities such as Wikileaks. Is this socially desirable? While I have no special insight into what Anon is thinking, I would surmise that they are not pleased that private entities are restricting free-flow of information and acting as a state's agents even when not compelled to do so by the force of law.

We've heard from many business (Amazon, PayPal, etc) that blocking WikiLeaks (and consequently inhibiting free distribution of classified US documents and secret corporate information) is, at its core, a profitable business decision. I would guess that Anon is trying to send a message that such an "anti-freedom" decision (scare quotes intentional) can instead become very expensive.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by corin_ on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @10:51AM (#1983295)
It's not a dissimilar concept to strike action, in that it may well have a negative effect on customers, but is believed to be neccesary none-the-less.

I fully support unions and strikers, however I'm not sure how I feel about this kind of action. The similarity ends with differences such as strikers have names, faces, spokespeople, they decide together if they are for or against striking, it isn't one or more people with nothing to do with the company who makes the decision.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by noblethrasher on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:55PM (#1983851)
Strike actions have symmetry and boundedness. Withholding labor obviously affects both the company and the workers and the action can only go so far since both sides need each other to survive.

This kind of action is asymmetric and unbounded: Anon can hurt MasterCard without cost to himself (presumably) and he can theoretically carry it out for as long as he wants. This can only lead to some kind of escalation if MasterCard (and similar entities) want to survive.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by follower on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:57PM (#1984108)
> Anon can hurt MasterCard without cost to himself (presumably)

Presumably getting caught and jailed/fined is a potential cost? So it's not an action without risk/cost.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by steveklabnik on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @07:38PM (#1985418)
As one of their propaganda posters says, "Just say you've gotten a virus." The chances of anyone getting nailed for this are pretty low.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by loewenskind on Thursday December 09, 2010 @10:16AM (#1987712)
I wouldn't be so sure. This was organized somewhere and I doubt every one of the people involved was technically good enough to completely hide their IP address. Don't be shocked if someone gets jail time and a fine of millions of dollars over this.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by corin_ on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:05PM (#1983899)
Agreed. My comparison was purely in reply to the concept of "you shouldn't hurt a company to improve things, because it hurts their customers too."
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by ghostDancer on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:40PM (#1984028)
Well the you can compare it with commercial sanctions to Cuba, Irak or North Korea that the international community don't suffer too much (they're not big players) but the people of those countries do, not only their governments.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by berntb on Thursday December 09, 2010 @04:58AM (#1986838)
OTOH, you can't let dictators use their own population as hostages, when they buy weapons instead of feeding the populations (Saddam, which you mentioned, had lots of money from smuggling).

Also, is it better to let those populations suffer in "jail" for generations? (If I was Eastern European, I'd be pretty pissed to have been left to rot until 1989.)

If nothing else, the dictators spread their problems (support of terrorists, atom weapon programs etc).

Look at WW II for what will happen when democracies are pressed. At the start of the war, British military argued against bombing private property (German factories). Compare that to a few years later.

(I guess the place where this is closest to happen next, is Israel and the humongous Hezbollah (/Hamas?) arsenals of rockets optimized for attacks against civilians.)

Point is, those juntas are arguably a blight on humanity that needs to be solved, the longer it takes the worse it might be.

Ah well, this is both after the discussion and irrelevant to Wikileaks.

Edit: Made a bit clearer.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by noblethrasher on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @04:02PM (#1984591)
Oh, there wasn't much of a disagreement on my part; I was just pointing out the essential differences more explicitly.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by varjag on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @11:35AM (#1983510)
The difference might not be as huge, Round Robin was not invented for nothing. Just that the online world has more opportunity for anonymous sabotage.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by ebaysucks on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @11:47AM (#1983557)
"Socially desirable" is the right way to think about it. Law has always been "mob rule", with competitive courts competing to define what this entails.

"Legal" just means the government agrees with it. The state claimed a monopoly on "law" along the way.

The tension we see today is that the "legal" does not represent the "socially desirable" / "law" anymore.

Granted, a binary offline/online result using DDOS attacks is a very rude reputation system, but the reputation feedback processes can be improved upon by competition (semantic web startups anyone?).

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by kenjackson on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:19PM (#1983698)
Law has always been "mob rule", with competitive courts competing to define what this entails.

Exactly. In the US we have a system of checks in balances to pit competing mobs against each other in a way such that it is sufficiently difficult for a mob to rule over a large population. But if the mob gets sufficiently large, they can rule. And likewise, for small geographic regions we often do have mob rule.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by marknutter on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @10:50AM (#1983291)
But what is "socially desirable" is a completely subjective thing though. There could be a small group of Anons that think banning gays from entering the military is "socially desirable" and use that as a basis for taking down websites of companies who work with the military.

It's Mastercard's choice whom they do business with, and by launching this attack Anon is only further solidifying the misguided popular belief that Wikileaks is akin to a terrorist organization. It may seem like a victory in the short term, but in terms of Wikileak's PR I think it's a huge setback.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by loewenskind on Thursday December 09, 2010 @10:19AM (#1987718)
The only people who are going to blame this on Wikileaks are the people who are uninformed enough to already think they're a terrorist organization anyway. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about what such people think because unless you can get a spokesmen on Fox News you can't change their mind anyway.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by borism on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @10:56AM (#1983323)
It's Mastercard's choice whom they do business with

No it's not.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by jlgosse on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @11:18AM (#1983431)
I'm really interested in this, and I'm confused as to why people are voting you up. You provided an answer with absolutely no evidence to support what you said and people find the answer either, a) Helpful or b) Interesting.

Can you explain how it isn't their choice? Mastercard, VISA and American Express turn down applicants ALL the time, so doesn't this go against what you are saying here?

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by defen on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:45PM (#1983804)
I'm not sure what his point was, but technically it's true, at least in the U.S. There are a host of "protected classes", and if you refuse to do business with someone because they're in that protected class, you get in Big Trouble. This includes race, color, gender, age, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by marknutter on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:49PM (#1983828)
It's not true, otherwise signs that say "no shirt, no shoes, no service" would be illegal. You're referring to laws against discrimination based on race, sex, or disabilities. This says nothing about refusing service to people for other reasons, such as a rowdy bar patron or someone who violates Terms of Service.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by jbooth on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:42PM (#1984040)
It's generally understood that refusing to do business with someone for political reasons, unless the person's politics involve genocide or something, is against the social contract. Not illegal, but generally not approved of by anyone (unless you have the whole US media playing the mccarthy card against the person, apparently).
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by neilc on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @03:02PM (#1984390)
I think there are many people who, given the chance, would not do business with WikiLeaks (on the grounds that their actions are perceived to be against the US national interest and potentially putting lives in danger). So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this would be "generally understood ... to be against the social contract."
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by jbooth on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @03:03PM (#1984399)
If you're a small business and people can take their money elsewhere, that's one thing, if you're one of two giant corporations providing a vital service, that's another.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by okaramian on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:47PM (#1983817)
There is a difference between turning down an individual for financial reasons and turning down an organization due to political pressure (whose money they were completely okay with taking before the hammer fell down).

I'm not saying it isn't their choice, but there is no real advantage to them angering politicians who could screw them on votes or funding at some point in the future.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by vegai on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:28PM (#1983982)
They're now collectively turning down something. That's not something they should be allowed to do, given that they control a lot when it comes to moving money. It puts a consumer in a position where he has no choice.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by VMG on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @12:55PM (#1983853)
I vote him up because I don't vote based on agreement. Invisible text simply makes the discussion difficult to read.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by jlgosse on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @01:59PM (#1984119)
Another thing, the people who think that bringing down Mastercard is going to help Wikileaks in any way need a serious reality check.

Why would anyone do business with someone if there was even a tiny chance that they would get screwed over the next day to the tune of MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars. The fact that mastercard.com is down and their SecureCode service is offline has already cost thousands of small businesses millions of dollars. Do you think these companies are going to support something like Wikileaks after this event?

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by fleitz on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @03:30PM (#1984492)
I know I mean thats like thinking 12 guys back in 1776 could really stop the British Empire with their silly little tea parties.
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by brass_cannon on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @06:37PM (#1985209)
Except your assertion requires that the availability of imported tea was an essential component to the American Revolution's success. The founders didn't reduce their available resources by making people less likely to import tea.

Anon has reduced Wikileaks' available resources by making people less likely to facilitate donations to them.

Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by fleitz on Thursday December 09, 2010 @12:41AM (#1986229)
Re:MasterCard under DDOS, can't process SecureCode online pa... by borism on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @02:17PM (#1984198)
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/security-bullet-in-10000166/leg...

Visa and MasterCard can block payment providers if they believe those generate a lot of fraudulent activity, not because they disagree with those organisations activities.