News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by rossenberg79 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:24PM (#19714005)
As westerners I feel this is natural to think, and makes sense to us, but having been in China several times I'm not so sure.

The value systems in Asia are far different, and people are much more collective where as we are a more individualist society with different thoughts about individual freedom.

I doubt China could have become as strong as it is today without it's long history of authoritarian regimes, and I feel that many in China believe this to be true. The growing dissent may not be a sign of what's to come but may simply be the growing pains of a totalitarian regime moving into the 21st century. I do not agree with Chinese government but I never underestimate it. There are some smart people working to keep over a billion people under control and productive, and I'm sure they will ultimately find a way that keeps them like that, and can be accepted by it's citizens.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by yongjik on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:54PM (#19714517)
As a Korean I absolutely disagree. Korea has embraced Chinese philosophy in the past, sometimes to such a degree that it was more Confucian than China itself. Yet South Koreans are as zealous about democracy as any western nation.

In fact, there was a time when our own dictator and his followers used exactly the same argument, saying that "Western Democracy" does not fit Asia's unique culture, and we should instead implement "Korean Style Democracy", i.e., authoritarianism. I view them as traitors of our own country and our own culture.

In fact, one of the core tenets of Confucianism is that the monarch is not an absolute ruler but is bound by moral duty. As a classical Confucian text says: 君者舟也, 庶人者水也, 水則載舟, 水則覆舟.

"The monarch is a boat, and people are the water. Water floats the boat, but water also sinks the boat."

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by why_only_15 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:15PM (#19715399)
That's a fantastic quote. Thanks for sharing it.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by spectramax on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:41PM (#19714097)
This is not a very compelling argument - "They're different from us, therefore we are not in a position to comment." There is a tremendous understanding, analysis and comprehension of totalitarianism in the west. Even in popular culture, say 1984 by George Orwell.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by maehwasu on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:50PM (#19714154)
Analyzing widely differing cultures and peoples under the unitary framework of “totalitarianism” isn’t terribly compelling either. The Chinese government has shown remarkable staying power, and it’s important to analyze the ways/reasons it might continue to hold power, since that seems to be a quite likely outcome.

The intuition that western liberal democracy is some sort of inevitable wave is very possibly just an artifact of the US winning WWII.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by d0100 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:24PM (#19714960)
> The Chinese government has shown remarkable staying power

They are huge, filled with uneducated hungry people. Isn't too remarkable when the government's tactic boils down to "kill dissenters & feed the rest".

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ufmace on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:04PM (#19714227)
It seems like an ironic blind spot to me. Western liberals claim to be all about tolerance and diversity and multiculturalism, yet seem to have difficulty conceiving of the idea that maybe some other cultures genuinely don't want to turn into Western Liberal Democracies.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by viraptor on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:42PM (#19714739)
Tolerance and diversity normally stops at "it's cool we're doing things differently, as long as nobody gets hurt". Why would you be tolerant of people being abused?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by hyperdunc on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:15PM (#19715645)
That's a good question to ask police and local government officials in places like Rotherham.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by viraptor on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:26PM (#19715700)
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Would you like to expand on the situation?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by pertymcpert on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:29AM (#19717572)
Blowing that dog whistle hard aren’t you.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by tomrod on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:27PM (#19715713)
Maybe, maybe not. The starting philosophical base of Western Liberal Democracy is that individuals matter, and they have natural rights. That's a compelling narrative.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by scarmig on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:05PM (#19714869)
What does it even mean for a culture to want something?

Only individuals can want something. Societies can't want something; the Earth can't want something; a company or government can't want something.

It's clear that there are individuals in China who do want tolerance. And it's even clearer that there are government officials who are scared of what individuals might start wanting if exposed to ideas of tolerance and democracy.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ufmace on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:38PM (#19715025)
Saying that the culture wants something is kind of a shorthand. It's more like a function of exactly what every individual in the population wants, how badly they want it, and how they go about ranking various things they want that sort of contradict each other.

I'm going to just skip tolerance here, because it's a complex idea not entirely related.

Let's use Democracy. There are definitely some people in China who want Democracy. There are everywhere. It's not remarkable that some people want it, but the numbers are the important part. If 2% of the people want it, then it's never going to happen. If 40% of the people want it, then it might move that way soon. Thing is, while 2% is a tiny minority, it's still objectively a lot of people. 2% can get you a bunch of activist groups and busy-looking protests and that sort of thing. It's much easier than you might think to look at a 2% movement that you personally agree with and believe that it's a mainstream view, the future of the country, etc, when it actually isn't.

Now that's just an example. Personally, I have no idea what the approval rating of Democratic ideas is in China. Tricky thing about totalitarian countries that practice censorship, it's hard to get an idea of what people really think. I'd like to think that it's a mainstream, growing idea. Clearly the Government is indeed afraid of it enough to go out of their way to censor it. But I worry that we may be fooling ourselves, and it has no real traction.

I would also point out that we don't have entirely clean hands either when it comes to tolerating 2%-size political movements advocating for radical changes to the structure of our government and society. Plenty of examples to pick from, no matter what your political persuasion is. I'm not saying we're as bad as them or anything - they're much, much further down that rabbit hole. I'm just saying that it's much easier than you think to ignore and excuse such abuses when they're against something that you don't like.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by CamperBob2 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:30PM (#19714388)
Google "The Paradox of Tolerance," if you're allowed to.

Some truths really are self-evident.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ufmace on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:50PM (#19714779)
I have read it. If you have a point you want to make, you're welcome to make it.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by CamperBob2 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:19PM (#19714929)
If you didn't get the point when Karl Popper explained it, I doubt I'll be any more effective at conveying it here.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by lovemenot on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:02PM (#19715116)
Including myself, there's probably many other people reading this who have not read it and would like one or two of its salient points.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by CamperBob2 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:09PM (#19715134)
The basic idea is that tolerating totalitarianism is self-defeating, even when done to prop up one's fondest notions of cultural relativism.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by tomrod on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:50PM (#19716042)
This is a good read for the notion. I found it a good starting point when I dug into this a little while ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ufmace on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:33PM (#19715224)
I'm generally happy to write walls of text to debate ideas, but I'm not very inclined to do it for people who just drop links. I will however drop a link of my own:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...

TL; DR: Everyone hates their outgroup, and everybody has one, including you and me. Isn't it rather convenient to convince yourself that everyone in your outgroup is intolerant totalitarians, so that you can continue to hate them and justify any kind of tactics against them while also patting yourself on the back at how tolerant you are? (The 'you' there doesn't mean anyone in particular, just a general statement).

Tolerance means not hating your enemies, your outgroup, and is genuinely hard and pretty rare. Everybody likes their friends and allies, and there's nothing particularly special or virtuous about it.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Dylan16807 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:31PM (#19715465)
> Isn't it rather convenient to convince yourself that everyone in your outgroup is intolerant totalitarians

That's a pretty extreme strawman. I disagree with lots of outgroups, and I only call a couple of them totalitarians.

If someone hates all of the outgroup, they are almost certainly hypocritical and lying to themselves about being tolerant.

If someone hates none of the outgroup, we can agree they're virtuous and special, sure.

If someone hates 15% of the outgroup for specific reasons, that's probably okay. It doesn't automatically imply that they are secretly intolerant. Most people that claim to prioritize tolerance are here, and most of them are telling the truth.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ufmace on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:22PM (#19715909)
I think we have a disagreement on the definition of the term "outgroup". The article I linked goes into more detail, but I'd say that an outgroup is defined by being the group that you hate, not necessarily just those who are different from you in some way. It doesn't make sense to talk about what percentage of them you hate when it's defined as being the people that you hate. There's no test to determine exactly what it is, but you can sometimes tell by people's behavior. Tolerance, then, is determined by behaving respectfully and with consideration to those you hate.

And perhaps that statement was an oversimplification, but as I understand it, that's essentially the point of the Paradox of Tolerance. If you had to sum that up in a sentence or two, how else would you do it?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Dylan16807 on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:00AM (#19716424)
If it's defined as the people you hate, then size matters a huge amount. If you only hate and would discriminate against two people, then you're amazingly tolerant.

The paradox of tolerance is not particularly difficult to deal with. You prioritize the preservation of as much tolerance as possible. If someone is trying to reduce the levels of tolerance in the world by a large amount, it's important to fight them, even if it means minor short term intolerance. And even then you tolerate them in all other ways.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by jononor on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:47PM (#19714130)
The argument was not that they are different, but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom". Totalitarianism seems an obviously bad thing wrt to individual freedom, but if that is not so important, it may not matter as much as we westerners think it should.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by tanilama on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#19714848)
> but that they are more collectively minded and put less value in "individual freedom"

Chinese people aren't drones. They don't have a hivemind to tell them what is good for them. Sacrifice for the country might be a thing during Mao's period, but I am not seeing it in nowadays' young generation.

On the contrary, I think Chinese people believe less in the collective good. If the problem isn't your own problem, then it is everyone's problem, then it is no one's problem. That is why in so many situations, government becomes that last resort to figure stuff out.

'The mountains are tall, and the emperor is afar', as the old Chinese sayings goes. The ruthless authoritarianism and primitive freedom co-exist in China's case.

There is pressure to conform, but only because not doing so, there will be pain. 'The bird who extends out its head most gets shot first', as they always say.

Confucianism might be what the world, even China itself thinks about itself, how it is ruled upon. But Fajia (Legalism) is what actually gets executed in real life.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 0815test on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:52PM (#19715081)
It's hard to believe in the collective good when you haven't achieved basic economic security for yoursef. You see this everywhere - charity begins at home. And even "putting value in individual freedom", in a broadly political sense, is something that requires a sympathetic and collectively-minded outlook.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mirimir on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:18PM (#19714643)
Well, maybe they're "more collectively minded" because they've been living under totalitarian regimes for millennia. And even if we accept (which I do) that some Western-style society is better, getting there would be hugely nontrivial.

In particular, getting there would arguably involve considerable chaos. And so it's not that hard for those in control to play on people's fears about that. After all, Westerners have tried to impose democracy on China before, and it didn't work out very well.

Back in the 60s, China was on track to be North Korea times 10^4 to 10^6. But Kissinger managed to convince Nixon to intervene in a constructive and noninvasive way. That clearly has worked, so what we need is arguably to stay on that track.

On the other hand, isolating South Africa arguably did hasten the end of Apartheid. And if China undertakes full-on genocide against the Uyghurs, that may be the only moral path. But orders of magnitude more dangerous. And when we add global climate change to the mix, it'll be insane.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by true_religion on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:40PM (#19715258)
It's more collectively minded as many countries ended up with an figurehead emperor who acts as a symbol of the state, giving everyone something to bind themselves to even if they hate their local king.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by bitcurious on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:51PM (#19715785)
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by AvocadoPanic on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:28PM (#19715204)
South Africa really the best example of a 'successful' intervention?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mirimir on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:32PM (#19715470)
Have there been any truly successful forceful interventions?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Gpetrium on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:42PM (#19716348)
It depends on the definition of success for the involved parties. It doesn't always mean full captulation.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mirimir on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:48AM (#19716602)
I meant more about long-term improved situation.

I suppose that you could claim Germany or Japan as long-term successes. But the costs were immense.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mcguire on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:39PM (#19715503)
What do you expect to happen when their economy has its version of the great depression or the Japanese lost decades?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by AlexCoventry on Monday April 22, 2019 @01:42AM (#19716803)
That's unlikely to happen unless the PRC loses a major war or becomes much more corrupt. They're ideologically and politically quite capable of re-engineering their financial system so it continues to allocate resources as they see fit, and they're not beholden to a great power with misaligned interests, the way Japan is.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by whoopdedo on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:02PM (#19714216)
> therefore we are not in a position to comment.

I did not read anything of the sort in that response. It stated that respondent disagreed with your conclusion and explained why. Are you conflating a difference of opinion with suppression of free expression? That does not seem a healthy attitude to have.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by true_religion on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:36PM (#19715234)
> As westerners

Are the actions of the current Chinese dictatorship praised or at least scene as normal by Koreans, Japanese, or Taiwanese?

No.

The culture of repression, and a hair trigger to stamp out any unfavorable comment on a regime is a sign of bad governance. Where will it end? Ten years ago, it was safe to criticize the actions of the regime, so long as you accepted that the government as a whole legitimate. Now you can no longer criticize the top-level, as its just one man. Will this trickle down till no one can speak ill of the government at all, lest they be seen as speaking ill of its dictator?