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Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Syzygies on Monday April 08, 2019 @09:56AM (#19605209)
Labor has become more expensive than parts, for many aspects of home repair. We haven't adapted our habits to this.

The last time I let my university landlord paint my apartment, it took days to clear the furniture, and I was instructed to do no paint prep. There were peels coming down from the ceiling. The painters exploited this "paint is glue" theory by painting under the peels and pushing them flat. I channeled my desire to kill them on the spot by politely escorted them out in mid-job and never letting anyone paint for me again.

The next time I painted this apartment, I stripped the ceiling bare of its many poorly applied layers, and applied $500 of artist-grade acrylic primer and titanium white paint to the ceiling and walls. 15 years later, the apartment looks just-painted. Artist-grade acrylic paint is one of the best glues available, much more reliably so than oil paint.

In the years since, the best wall paints have come closer to artist-grade acrylic paints, and their glues are likely better tuned to typical conditions. Artist paint is more expensive and better. Carefully tuning a cheap glue is like botching an airplane hardware design and trying to fix it in software.

Later in a home, filling holes in contractor botched cabinet work, I started with artist-grade acrylic modeling putty, added just enough dye from the commercial paint manufacturer to match the existing cabinet paint, tweaked the gloss to also match, and created a one-step wood fill that disappeared into the existing paint job when dry. Much less shrinkage than commercial wood fills, and no primer or repainting needed. Again, acrylic art supplies making the best glue.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by qubex on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:36AM (#19606158)
Ballpark estimate by somebody who operates in the paint industry and has done so for almost fifteen years (albeit what is for you likely a foreign country: Italy). Industry associations estimate that the cost of materiel amounts to between 20% and 30% of the total cost experienced by the homeowner, depending on various factors (interior/exterior, type of finish desired, & cetera). So roughly three quarters of your “painting bill” comes from labour, not material. Knowing this, the DIY chains actually hike the prices of what are admittedly lower-grade paints because they know that by cutting out labour costs theirs is still a winning proposition for cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself”.

It’s pretty dismal. And broadly speaking, it's unsustainable.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by retzkek on Monday April 08, 2019 @04:51PM (#19608894)
> cash-strapped homeowners desperate enough to “Damage It Yourself”

I find it a sad statement that one suggests the primary reason for DIY is out of desperation - surely I am not alone in doing many home and auto maintenance tasks myself out of primarily the enjoyment and satisfaction of learning and executing a new skill? Sure, /r/DIWhy is full of examples of ill-advised and unsafe DIY attempts, typically in electrical, plumbing, and deck-laying, but that doesn't mean that we should discourage people from learning the basics of low-risk home maintenance such as painting, tiling, flooring, etc. On the contrary I believe the reward one feels from accomplishing such tasks oneself and with the help of friends or family can have a powerful positive emotional effect on society.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by ryandrake on Monday April 08, 2019 @05:48PM (#19609367)
In addition to the educational and satisfaction benefits (which I also agree with), I look at it this way: my standard of living is better because I do everything myself. What others spend on hiring painters, movers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, I save, and it allows me to live like someone who makes quite a bit more than I do. I’ve got a modest tech salary, and wouldn’t call myself desperate or cash strapped—just frugal and keen to optimize every penny.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Dylan16807 on Monday April 08, 2019 @07:28PM (#19610178)
> to live like someone who makes quite a bit more than I do

That's kind of misleading, because it ignores the value of your labor. You work more hours, and you get a lifestyle improvement that can be measured in dollars. You're not preventing costs, you're changing how you pay.

If that's optimal in your specific case then great! But it's easy to imagine a person where it's not optimal at all. If Bob saves $X for every hour he spends on his house, and Bob makes $3X at his job, and he's equally happy doing either kind of labor, then Bob is a fool to do multi-hour household jobs himself.

Using time to save dollars is a tool, one that can be used or misused. You want to optimize lifestyle vs. effort, not lifestyle vs. nominal salary.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by caymanjim on Monday April 08, 2019 @09:13PM (#19610757)
Most tech workers make a salary. Your labor has no financial value if it's "paint my house" vs "watch TV".
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Dylan16807 on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:01PM (#19611053)
That's true in a very short term sense.

Over the long term you can either find some freelancing hours or get a job that offers a different expectation of worked hours and a different amount of pay.

So if you're out of balance you can fix it to do more of the job you want and have more leisure hours too. Or less of the job you don't want.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by ryandrake on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:48AM (#19615212)
I concluded the same as caymanjim. I’m a firm believer in “Your spare time is only worth money if you’d otherwise be making money.” I’m not paid hourly, so the opportunity cost of my spare time is $0, and like many tech companies, mine forbids freelancing/moonlighting. The math works out to favor DIY in my case but it’s obviously not for everyone.

If I had a job where more hours directly translated into more money, 1. I would drop DIY projects and 2. I would probably become a workaholic.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Dylan16807 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @01:33PM (#19617075)
Okay, but considering that it could save you a huge amount of time overall, next time you're looking for a job consider searching harder for one that has paid overtime opportunities. (But not enough to enable workaholism.)
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by bradknowles on Monday April 08, 2019 @07:47PM (#19610300)
If you've got the necessary talent and skill, and you've done your homework, then you're better off with DIY.

But few have the talent.

And that skill usually comes from making mistakes and screwing stuff up on a previous job.

And very few people are willing and able to do the homework.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by qubex on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:40AM (#19614477)
My characterisation of DIY as “Damage It Yourself” might seem a bit mean, but it very much represents the (admittedly biased) statistical feedback we as a sector get from those who choose this route. As somebody remarks further down, competence in these kinds of home-maintenance activities generally derives from experience “earned the hard way”.

Obviously DIY and the attendant issues are entirely absent from the industrial sector, which I spend most of my time frequenting.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by HeWhoLurksLate on Monday April 08, 2019 @03:50PM (#19608431)
My family worked together to install the cabinets in our kitchen, which we then paid to have a granite counter-top on. Yes, there are some unfortunate scratches, but we did a good job.

I would argue that DIY is more equal to assume all risk.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by leguminous on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:33PM (#19606719)
You sometimes need to be careful, depending on climate and construction specifics, what sort of paints you apply to the walls in modern buildings. Using vapor-closed paints (or worse, vinyl wallpaper) will not allow the drywall to dry to the interior and can result in mold and mildew growth.

I don't know the characteristics of acrylic artists' paint, but there might be reason to be careful.

One thing I've also been wondering about is if repainting every other year, even with vapor-open paints, would have a similar effect. So many rental properties just end up with layers and layers of paint.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by crazygringo on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:55AM (#19605748)
> 15 years later, the apartment looks just-painted

Curious what you mean?

In my experience, new paint coats are needed because of marks left on walls -- accumulated smudges, scuffs, furniture bangs, nicks, filled anchor holes, etc. None of which higher-quality paint has anything to do with... I assume?

Am I wrong? Assuming paint is applied correctly in the first place, what are the longevity benefits of using a higher-quality paint?

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by rhinoceraptor on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:09AM (#19605867)
A lot of scuffs and smudges can be cleaned off with a magic eraser and some elbow grease. It's certainly easier than re-painting.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by dilyevsky on Monday April 08, 2019 @03:20PM (#19608219)
Depends on paint sheen (try doing that with flat finish paint - just gonna smear it all over)
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by samastur on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:32PM (#19606708)
Soft rubber eraser works too.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by GordonS on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:24PM (#19607178)
Some white paint goes an off yellow colour over time, particularly gloss paint.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by pnathan on Monday April 08, 2019 @02:25PM (#19607768)
that is typical of oil paint, due to the way linseed polymerizes.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by GordonS on Monday April 08, 2019 @02:46PM (#19607940)
I couldn't remember whether it was water-based gloss or oil-based gloss that was most affected, so just went for "gloss" - thanks for clarifying :)
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by C1sc0cat on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:31AM (#19605525)
A few years ago I looked at buying a listed building in the UK (mentioned in pevsner as well).

And you MUST use special old paint that fades very quickly to be authentic.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by pjc50 on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:47AM (#19605690)
Never, ever buy a listed building unless you are rich and retired.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by C1sc0cat on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:18PM (#19606561)
Lol - well there are a pair of really nice Arts and Crafts houses I have my eye on for when I win the lottery :-)

I did not go through because the developers stuffed up and got sued by English heritage for months.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by korethr on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:40PM (#19607320)
Having done both art painting with acrylic and building painting with acrylic-based paints, I don't know that I completely agree that art acrylics are better for wall coating than wall paints. No small part of the higher price for art acrylics vs wall paint acrylics is the pigment density. A blue that looks back into you when you look at it can be entirely appropriate for artistic work. Or, if it's not supposed to be the blue that's looking into your soul, you can mix that cobalt blue with a mars yellow to get the exactly correct shade green needed, because you're never going to get the green you want using a phthalo green as your base. Most people neither want nor need the intensity of color, nor the color flexibility that comes with art paints when it comes to their wall colors.

Additionally, art acrylics are typically very thick, to allow the artist a high degree of flexibility in application density, a flexibility that's just not needed for wall application. You correctly note that labor is the major cost for house repair. In light of that, it strikes me as silly to buy a bunch of extra-thick art paint and take the time to thinning it down the the appropriate consistency for wall application, instead of just buying a volume of paint that was already at the appropriate viscosity.

An acrylic-latex intended for outdoor use is going to be formulated to account for the fact that exterior surfaces see wider temperature swings in the summer and winter, and will be more flexible in its final cured form, reducing the flaking and cracking caused by the temperature-driven expansion and contraction that comes with the seasons. The formulation is also likely to account for the greater UV exposure its going to have outside. If you try to coat the exterior of your house with art paints, you're going to be spending a lot more money, it it might not last as long than if you used a paint intended for the purpose.

Now, if your goal in either scenario is art or aesthetics, than that's a completely separate discussion. If you want the wall of your house that faces the local park to be a mural highlighting fundamental truths of the human condition, more power to you. Though, in that case, you might do better to eschew pre-forumlated paints entirely, and instead buy the raw outdoor-use formulated resins and pigments yourself, and mix as appropriate.

> The last time I let my university landlord paint my apartment, it took days to clear the furniture, and I was instructed to do no paint prep. There were peels coming down from the ceiling. The painters exploited this "paint is glue" theory by painting under the peels and pushing them flat. I channeled my desire to kill them on the spot by politely escorted them out in mid-job and never letting anyone paint for me again.

Okay, that's just sloppy work. I'd have wanted to kill them too. When I was painting commercially, if I or my supervisors had caught anyone doing that, said slacker would be off the crew permanently.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Syzygies on Monday April 08, 2019 @04:51PM (#19608887)
Yes, I blended acrylic medium with the densest titanium white I could find in liquid form. I believed that I was delivering more titanium white to my walls than any commercial choice would have yielded.

I avoided the related "designer" question of choosing off-whites. I'm a math professor, and a grad student described these walls as like being "inside a stick of chalk" (Hagoromo, given the choice).

Pure white is a color mirror. Why does that corner look pink? There's a red object in that part of the room.

Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by drawkcab on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:12AM (#19605358)
Did you apply any mud to smooth the surface before you painted the apartment?
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by Syzygies on Monday April 08, 2019 @10:29AM (#19605508)
As needed, but once I got to bare concrete/whatever it was remarkably smooth. I chipped off the ceiling slowly over weeks, avoiding gouging.
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by HillaryBriss on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:59PM (#19606952)
what about lead? how did you handle the old lead paint layers?
Re:Paint Is Colored Glue by eledumb on Monday April 08, 2019 @05:17PM (#19609134)
When you are painting cinderblock it's a lot easier.