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Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by PaulHoule on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:44PM (#19574370)
It's a long term difference between the Unix culture and the Windows NT culture (which date back to VMS) that Windows will give up when things are wrong and Unix will barrel ahead anyway.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by toast0 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:01PM (#19574565)
I think there's reasons that either approach is the right one, but Microsoft has the benefit that if they panic on boot, there's a good chance the issue will be fixed, and most likely before the product is released. (In this case, the fix was apparently just to list a smaller maximum ram size though)
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ajross on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:49PM (#19575116)
This is it. Firmware and OEM system configuration in the PC industry is basically garbage, and always has been. OEMs tweak until it boots whatever version of windows will ship on it, rush it out the door, and never touch it again unless some volume customer comes back with a bug report.

Linux needs to come in after the fact and run on whatever garbage happened to ship.

(FWIW: in this case the root cause was a host bridge in the tables which had been granted a truly outrageous memory space despite having no devices in it. It was likely a typo, or some test stuff that got left in.)

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by throw0101a on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:30PM (#19574909)
Unix was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn

* https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Unix

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ineedasername on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:31PM (#19579438)
An excellent quote. The line between the two isn't always clear either, though usually the uncertainty is in only one direction for me, i.e., things I thought were clever at the time turn out to be stupid down the line.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by duxup on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:17PM (#19574760)
In another career I sat on a conf call where an engineering manager was really upset and went off on a tangent about how X code should not "freak out" every time it sees something unexpected.

I was not writing code at the time and had nothing to contribute.

So apparently they fixed it later.... then came the security issues, unexpected behavior, shit going sideways.

Sometimes a straight crash is not such a bad thing.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by voidfunc on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:13PM (#19576022)
I would rather something crash and log than continue silently most of the time, especially with backend and server systems.

One of the things I like about Kubernetes is that the ecosystem (generally) tries to adhere to the "Not healthy? Then crash and keep crashing" mantra when something doesn't work. If I see something is in a CrashLoopBackoff I at least know its b0rked. Stuff that reports its up and running when it's actually hosed is really annoying.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by duxup on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:20PM (#19576108)
I'm inclined to agree.

The worst sort of thing to track down is working ... but not. God knows when it started or what it has impacted.

Worse if it impacts real data or data goes where it shouldn't.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by olliej on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:25PM (#19574848)
Indeed - and increasingly deterministic crashes are being put in release builds (see RELEASE_ASSERT in webkit, and similar elsewhere)
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by Johnny555 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:16PM (#19574741)
And since windows was meant for the masses, it also helps keep someone from accidentally running in an unstable configuration.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by cptskippy on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:51PM (#19575136)
> (In this case, the fix was apparently just to list a smaller maximum ram size though)

You're assuming this was an issue. Manufacturers religiously create artificial tiers in software to upsell users. This is true of hardware just as much as it is software.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by raverbashing on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:13PM (#19574705)
To be honest, in regards to ACPI it was a very painful couple of years until Linux got the hang of it and stopped breaking for any issue

(It also took some Perkele by Linus to make it work correctly)

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by waterside81 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:09PM (#19575984)
For those like me who don't know what "Perkele" is:

Perkele means evil spirit in Finnish and is a popular Finnish profanity.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by benj111 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:05PM (#19576530)
Thanks, I was about to google, but had guessed correctly anyway.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkele

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by bogomipz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:48PM (#19574423)
I'm curious what's the connection between VMS and Windows NT?
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by Johnny555 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:55PM (#19574498)
I'm curious what's the connection between VMS and Windows NT?

https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vm...

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by lasereyes136 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:19PM (#19576102)
Read Showstopper it is about the making of Windows NT. It talks about the people that moved for Microsoft from DEC.

https://www.amazon.com/Showstopper-Breakneck-Windows-Generat...

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by Anarch157a on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:04PM (#19574608)
The creator of the NT kernel (Dave CUtler) also created VMS while working at DEC. Because of this, NT have a lot in common with VMS.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by bogomipz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:45PM (#19578576)
Interesting I never knew this. The links above all look like good reads. Cheers.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by seba_dos1 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:33PM (#19574947)
VMS++ == WNT ;)
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by EpicEng on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:04PM (#19575278)
That returns false and now you have to track down a bug because you decided to be clever :D
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by qntty on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:37PM (#19575001)
++VMS == WNT
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by bregma on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:14PM (#19576036)
WinNT = ++VMS
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by benj111 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @04:08PM (#19576562)
WinNT = ++*(VMS)
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ch_123 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:30PM (#19575596)
Obligitory reminder that the NT name predates Cutler at MS (it was originally called OS/2 NT)

EDIT: fix typo

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by justinclift on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:00PM (#19579278)
VMS > WNT

:)

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by bitwize on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:50PM (#19574443)
Dave Cutler.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by bitwize on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:50PM (#19574437)
That's because back in the day, Unix was designed for hackers to mess around and play games, while VMS was designed for actual production workloads (and Windows inherits this legacy).
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by PaulHoule on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:06PM (#19574630)
Partly.

Toward the end of the Bell system, AT&T used Unix to run the control plane of phone switches and also to do administrative tasks for the phone network. I remember a paper in the Bell Systems Technical Journal where they did auditing of billing records for the whole U.S. with a set of tools kinda like grep, awk, etc. but with binary-format data records.

There are situations where operating systems get behind the 8 ball and there isn't a perfect thing to do. Giving up to prevent data corruption is one choice, but trying to soldier on and do the best you can is another.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ryacko on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:32PM (#19574934)
The L3 cache is large enough to run an 80s operating system, there is no reason why BSODs to be so minimalistic, information about the possible why it failed could be done.

Lists of recently switched processes, or the general category of errors it falls in.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ninkendo on Thursday April 04, 2019 @07:12PM (#19578037)
There's a school of thought that would say that by default, error messages shouldn't be a huge scary wall of text, because you have to consider that a majority of the people who would see an error message are not developers, and have no idea what to do with that information.

It should certainly be possible for someone who can diagnose an error to see the details, but making it the default can be problematic when the message has a chance of being shown to real end users.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:25AM (#19579946)
> There's a school of thought that would say that by default, error messages shouldn't be a huge scary wall of text, because you have to consider that a majority of the people who would see an error message are not developers, and have no idea what to do with that information.

I think normal users have a pretty good idea what to do with it -- show it to the nearest tech person or paste it into Google.

Just giving it to them up front makes things easier, not harder. They need help so they take a screenshot. If it contains the relevant information, someone can help them. If it just says "an error occurred" then nobody can help with that because it contains no information. Now they have to go back and have the tech walk them through trying to extract the information from some log file, which is seventeen clicks through an interface they've never used and now there are 5000 entries and they don't remember exactly what time it happened etc.

It also deprives the user of any opportunity to learn. The user has a problem, they get a message, they ask the tech what to do and the tech tells them. Now the next time they get the same message they know what to do. But if the message is always the same regardless of the cause then they lose the ability to match known problems with known solutions and give up.

Not all users care to learn that sort of thing, but you take it when you can get it, not purposely inhibit the user from doing it.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by afureta on Friday April 05, 2019 @03:39AM (#19580532)
Thank you for that perspective - I've never thought of it that way before. Would it be worth appending "if you don't know what this means, ask your local nerd"?
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday April 05, 2019 @12:24PM (#19584093)
Sure. You don't have to take over the whole screen with a gdb console they don't know how to use. Make the message as friendly as possible, but it still ought to actually contain the information necessary to identify what happened.

I suspect the modern trend of making problems opaque comes from companies that do it on purpose. If the user can solve their own problems, what do they need with your expensive support contract? Why have the user fix problems with their existing device when you can sell them a whole new one the first time anything happens?

And then other developers who don't even use those business models still cargo cult the same UX.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by firethief on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:12PM (#19579345)
That sounds like airbags in a car. On the majority of trips you don't need them, but their presence is of little consequence. When you do need them, you're out of luck if they're not there.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by jxfreeman on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:51AM (#19580059)
Not to mention that Intel chips are already running Minix ...
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by ryacko on Friday April 05, 2019 @03:27AM (#19580475)
x86 used to support coprocessors and has the lock instruction for it. They should have added the security module as a PCI card.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:30PM (#19576206)
First of all, how would you localize it? English-only errors would not be acceptable today like they were in the 80s. Secondly, what if accessing/storing that diagnostic data is what caused the crash?
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by hak8or on Thursday April 04, 2019 @07:58PM (#19578342)
Not acceptable? English is the lingua de franca of technology.

I rather have a detailed error report in one language and then have to find someone who speaks it to translate it (if Google doesn't do a good enough job), than fifteen poorly written versions. Not to mention, those error screens should be as minimal as possible in terms of features so less goes wrong.

I don't want animations, fancy colors, dealing with the horror show that is localization, or anything of the sort. Because the system when it hits a bsod is in an undefined state, so it's best to exercise as little as possible of the system, just enough to get the error message out.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:49PM (#19578600)
Exactly what I'm saying! If all it does is show a bitmap, that's the simplest possible way of getting the error message out. The more detailed you want to make the BSOD screen, the more chance of something going wrong while rendering it. Localization is just one problem with making it detailed, but there are plenty of others too even if you settle for English-only errors.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by doteka on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:27PM (#19577292)
Yeah, given the choice between a translated message that is utterly useless and an English-only informative error dump, I'm gonna bet everyone remotely capable of dealing with the error would choose the latter every single time.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:42PM (#19577392)
> everyone remotely capable of dealing with the error

Already this excludes most people who will see the error. Meanwhile, experts already have more sophisticated tools available to them like the event viewer. Obviously that wouldn't be useful in a situation like this where boot-up is blocked, but like I mentioned previously, there's only so much diagnostics you can reliably provide on a system that is in the middle of crashing.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by MrStonedOne on Friday April 05, 2019 @02:48AM (#19580306)
The people who see the error will be the ones who screen shot it and send it to people can deal with the error.

So both sides have to be able to see the details.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:28AM (#19582260)
Well, you can't screenshot a BSOD, so I assume you mean they would take a photo of it (which would be awkward as hell just getting a high enough res copy from them that I could read it) or more likely they would just tell me the error message verbally and leave out all the advanced details. So I'm not sure this is really that good of a justification to make the BSOD screen more detailed.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by logfromblammo on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:15AM (#19582697)
A BSoD screen could display a QR code that encodes a URL at microsoft.com that unpacks all the data after the '?' in the URL, and provides an option to change culture and locale, including links to support pages known to be associated with that error, and a button to Bing-search for more information on the error. They could then copy-paste the URL for that page using their phone into a text or email to their favorite technical adept.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:59AM (#19583177)
They actually do exactly that already! You can see the QR code right in OP's pic.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by logfromblammo on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:54PM (#19585263)
I meant that the QR code should be larger, to encode the additional information shown after the registry patch as additional URL parameters. On re-reading, I did not make that clear.

Nobody is decoding QR codes by hand, so it isn't that big a deal to go from "https :// www.windows.com / stopcode ? code=ACPI_BIOS_ERROR" to "https :// www.windows.com / stopcode ? code=ACPI_BIOS_ERROR & p1=0000000000000002 & p2=FFFF9A0..."

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Friday April 05, 2019 @02:06PM (#19585377)
Ah, you're right. I didn't realize the bugcheck parameters weren't included in the code, that's definitely something which would be helpful. However then you still might run into the second problem of not being able to reliably render it in a crashing state. That's the only reason I could think why they would not include those parameters in the QR.
Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by michaelmrose on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:57PM (#19578647)
If the info is for the vendor who deals almost exclusively with English then localization is pointless.

If it is for the user then being able to google the exact error is going to return more results than 47 translations.

Most users will in fact do nothing but report said error to their vendor whom will refer to their English language documentation.

In other news most programming languages aren't localized for example.

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by shawnz on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:53AM (#19582467)
> If it is for the user then being able to google the exact error

And they already provide just enough information to be able to google the error. I am just opposed to adding more detailed information, the kind of information that's only relevant for experts and is not guaranteed to be available in the middle of a crash.

> In other news most programming languages aren't localized for example.

Programming languages aren't consumer products like operating systems are

Re:Adventures of putting 16 GB of RAM in a motherboard that ... by michaelmrose on Friday April 05, 2019 @03:33PM (#19586178)
Error messages aren't really consumer products either.