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Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @08:01PM (#19507612)
I believe that is an incorrect interpretation of the law.

The govt can compell an entity to assist in making encrypted information available. But the entity in question is not the individual employee, but the company who owns the product or service.

If you're under the employment (i.e., not a contractor), you can't be an entity, and the employer will definitely know if they've been compelled.

But I do agree the law is stupid and erodes all trust from software owned by an Australian company.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Benjamin_Dobell on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:16PM (#19508169)
IANAL, but sadly, the law does seem to target people rather than (or in addition to) corporations.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi...

> 317C:

> For the purposes of this Part, the following table defines:

> (a) designated communications provider;

> (b) the eligible activitiesof a designated communications provider

> A person is a designated communications provider if...

... Actually, there's too many to list. But here are a few examples:

> - the person provides an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

> - the person develops, supplies or updates software used, for use, or likely to be used, in connection with: (a) a listed carriage service; or (b) an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

> - the person manufactures or supplies components for use, or likely to be used,in the manufacture of a facility for use, or likely to be used,in Australia

> - the person is a constitutional corporation who: (a) manufactures; or (b) supplies; or (c) installs; or (d) maintains; data processing devices

Note that in the last situation they specifically mention corporations, but that prior situations do not require this. The requirements listed are to be interpreted as an OR not and AND... so ah, that's fun.

So yes, we Australians can be legally required by our Government to perform corporate espionage... and almost no-one in Australia (certainly not the public at large) seems to give a f--k.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Benjamin_Dobell on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:28PM (#19508244)
Oh, and it's probably worth noting that you need not even be an Australian citizen to be covered, you simply need to have users in Australia. Of course, whether Australia can enforce these laws against non-citizens is another matter.

However, this legislation was specifically put together with co-operation of all members of the five eyes, so there's a reasonable possibility of extradition. The Department of Home Affairs even made a public statement confirming as much. It seems to have since been pulled from their website, but is available at:

https://cryptome.org/2018/11/5-Eyes-Crypto.pdf

Five Eyes just wanted this legislation pushed through somewhere and targeted Australia because we:

- lack a bill of rights

- are constantly distracted by politicians backstabbing each other, and

- there's a strong 'think of the children' sentiment in Australia that can be (and has been) used to push through all sorts of egregious bills.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bad_user on Thursday March 28, 2019 @04:30AM (#19510341)
You can't force non-citizens, obviously, since non-citizens are not under Australian jurisdiction.

If they could, then this would create a problem of national security for other countries.

But yes, the Five Eyes countries can use Australia for their wiretapping.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mcv on Thursday March 28, 2019 @05:01AM (#19510469)
It wouldn't be the first time someone would be extradited to a country they've never even visited.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday March 28, 2019 @11:41AM (#19513282)
Jurisdiction sets no limits to itself, but to other jurisdictions. Australia can request extradition of anyone from anywhere, then it's up to that jurisdiction to decide whether to comply, which may or may not be situational. If the country believes it's a problem, then it would deny the request.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by blotter_paper on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:41PM (#19508691)
>However, this legislation was specifically put together with co-operation of all members of the five eyes, so there's a reasonable possibility of extradition. The Department of Home Affairs even made a public statement confirming as much. It seems to have since been pulled from their website, but is available at: [PDF link]

I read the PDF and didn't notice any mention of extradition. Am I missing something?

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by A2017U1 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:14AM (#19509983)
Don't know anything about extradition but the law specifically mentions putting in backdoors to aid foreign nations at their request.

It also notes that this can be for economic espionage too and isn't limited to national security (for the people who like to pretend that's not what their intelligence agencies are doing)

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Benjamin_Dobell on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:21AM (#19509224)
Sorry for the ambiguity. The reference I provided was with regard to the fact the Australian Government has collaborated with other five eyes countries with this legislation, or at least the 'need' for this legislation.

This is why I simply wrote there's a reasonable possibility of extradition, rather than anything definite.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by blotter_paper on Thursday March 28, 2019 @12:47AM (#19509356)
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:54PM (#19508417)
> the person provides an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia

I don’t think this particular clause covers an individual working for a corporation as an employee, as in that case the employee isn’t providing the service the employer is.

It reads to me like that clause is intended to cover people who produce software as sole operators of their business, or perhaps a group of people in a business partnership.

I haven’t read the rest of the act, so maybe there is a stronger clause targeting employees?

If the government can compel a company to do a thing that doesn’t necessarily mean they can compel any particular individual.

You could refuse / quit / abandon the project. Maybe they’ll just find somebody else to do it?

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by j16sdiz on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:15PM (#19508884)
Then the government threaten to sue, many will compel. If the government say they will get 5 year jail for telling anybody, how can they get help?

Remember AU have no bill of rights.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:19AM (#19509720)
in the definition part of the law:

> contracted service provider, in relation to a designated

> communications provider, means a person who performs services

> for or on behalf of the provider, but does not include a person who

> performs such services in the capacity of an employee of the

> provider.

The statute here is always talking about a contracted service provider who has to comply with the compelled "assistance". So as an employee, you do not have to worry about being jailed for non-compliance, as an employee cannot be a "contracted service provider". But you may be fired for non-compliance by your employer (if they choose to fire you because of it), but that's between you and your employer.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by Benjamin_Dobell on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:46AM (#19509842)
I'm certainly not a lawyer, so absolutely may have misinterpreted.

However, what I've quoted above is referring to the definition for a designated communications provider, as opposed to a 'contracted service provider' - the latter of which makes sense not to include employees as they're not 'contractors'. However, technical assistance notices (which are compulsory, as opposed to 'technical assistance requests') can be served to designated communications providers, as covered by 317L.

So the fact employees aren't considered a 'contracted service provider' is therefore not relevant?

Again, just reiterating, not at all a lawyer, however at this moment in time, this is my interpretation of the legislation.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:10AM (#19509956)
It is completely relevant, since the OP mentions that you as an australian working for a company could be compelled directly as a communications provider.

I'm saying that if you are in the employ of a communications provider or a contracted service provider, you do not have to worry about being compelled directly. I take "the person" to mean an actual person, or a legal person, but the employee of the communications provider is not a person (IANAL, so don't use me as legal advice).

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bigiain on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @10:28PM (#19508623)
You are making the incorrect assumption that the people writing these laws are not idiots.

They don't understand the technology.

They don't listen to any of the people who advise them about this technology.

They seem only to be listening to the police and other law enforcement crying about "paedophiles and terrorists GOING DARK".

The Prime Minister at the time claimed the laws of Australia overrode the laws of mathematics. Seriously.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:34AM (#19509785)
THe law provides a specific provision to say that there are limitations to what the assistance can be:

> 317ZG Designated communications provider must not be required

> to implement or build a systemic weakness or systemic

> vulnerability etc.

But the issue here is whether it's possible to perform the required "assistance" but not introduce systemic weakness or systemic vulnerability. I think it's a logical contradiction, so the law is pretty damn stupid...

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by shakna on Thursday March 28, 2019 @07:24AM (#19511084)
Systemic weakness or systemic vulnerability is redefined to not include anything that the notice can require however, rendering that particular exception pointless.

> systemic vulnerability means a vulnerability that affects a whole class of technology, but does not include a vulnerability that is selectively introduced to one or more target technologies that are connected with a particular person. For this purpose, it is immaterial whether the person can be identified.

The words "systemic weakness" means something completely different to how the industry would use it.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by bigiain on Thursday March 28, 2019 @07:55AM (#19511270)
"We don't need you to introduce a Systemic Weakness into the whole class of 'electronics', we just need you to selectively target the specific class 'mobile phones' that are connected to John Doe 3 aka bogey-man-de-jour."

This is now request that your lawyer would happily bill by the hour arguing with their lawyers in front of a judge - to determine whether it's a correct and enforceable interpretation of that shittily written legislation.

Except you aren't allowed to tell your lawyer we asked you to do it.

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by CWuestefeld on Thursday March 28, 2019 @11:18AM (#19513036)
No. The people who wrote the law (and handed it over to the elected politician) knows quite a lot about it. The politicians who put their face on it are mostly ignorant, if not idiots.

Politicians don't generally come home in the evening and sit down to write their own bills. They rely on "experts" to do it for them. The more we rely on a central regulatory apparatus, the more essential this is. And this is where we run into problem like this, as well as regulatory capture. But the fact remains that they've got to rely on somebody with expertise, yet where can you find such people, and how much can you trust them when they're not publicly responsible (or even known).

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by j16sdiz on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:17PM (#19508896)
They don't understand technology. But they know law -- and how to abuse them.
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by AaronFriel on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:09PM (#19508119)
What if the entity is, say, an independent contractor, staffing agency, or consultancy that provides engineering support to Apple?
Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by chii on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:31AM (#19509766)
i believe an independent contractor is considered a service provider, and so they could be compelled to provide the gov't assistance.

I also believe that these service provider(s) are required to not disclose the fact they've provided assistance. Therefore, apple would do well to not hire any australian company for their contracting purposes (but instead, employ them as an employee).

Re:Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of sto... by mastazi on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:00PM (#19508059)
I am not a lawyer so I wouldn't be able to comment on the meaning of "entity", I hope you are right though, and I also hope that the Australian Government would at least clarify the meaning of the provision and the legal definition of "entity" in this specific case.