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Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by cyphar on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:53PM (#19503758)
Matrix handles this by exposing the device keys to the user so they can make decisions about whether to trust new devices (and I believe identity key changes mean you wouldn't be in your rooms anymore -- but in order to change identity keys you would have to delete you entire Matrix account on the homeserver).

If a new device has shown up, your messages will be blocked from being sent until you verify the new device. To be fair, it is too easy to blaze past the warning -- and it can happen often in large rooms. As a result, it's a little bit cumbersome at the moment, but with device cross-signing coming down the pipe and the new verification system (which is much better than Signal's IMHO -- you just check both devices have the same string of 7 emoji on their screen) it's getting a lot better.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:55PM (#19505275)
I still think Keybase is right — multi-device or some kind of multi-trust model is best so the key revocations aren’t happening so often. I remember this problem with PGP and most people did not take the key verification seriously.

And the problem with SSH that was pointed out in the article is funny now because of cloud services where servers are constantly being destroyed, so keys are changing frequently, unless you save and persist that private key for the server in your configuration. Which I’ve realized a lot of companies are simply not doing, which leads to people straight up ignoring key verifications in their ssh config.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by swiftcoder on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:11PM (#19506669)
SSH is even worse in many corporate environments, because you also have to cross an SSH gateway to transit into from the corp fabric into the prod fabric.

At AWS this meant we had to hop to a different gateway for each region, and then onto the (stateless) production host which was recreated from scratch on every deployment... There's no way a human was going to keep all those keys straight, and everyone just disabled SSH host verification.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by rocqua on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:27PM (#19506809)
This actually seems like the right use-case for SSHFP records. They allow for storing the SSH key fingerprint in a DNSSEC secured zone.

Normally this is considered rather weak, because of the reliance on DNSSEC. However, in this case I think its a very easy to take step that'll be miles better than just trusting everything.

The stronger alternative is Certificate-based SSH, but that is a lot of hassle. As it requires setting up a CA, handling revocation, and actually distributing the certificates.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by toast0 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:58AM (#19509648)
It depends on how transient your servers are, but you can get pretty good mileage out of a checked in known_hosts file.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by groestl on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:54PM (#19506493)
A side note on the last part: @cert-authority is an underrated feature of OpenSSH. More companies should use it to make their infrastructure safer to use.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by chupasaurus on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @07:36PM (#19507408)
It has flaws in usage: issuer cert per group isn't easy to manage (and makes pubkeys 1000+ characters long), you have to distribute CRLs, one error in sshd_config could make server unmanagable (multiplied by your config manager). I haven't seen a pure SSH CA automation project too.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by groestl on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:51PM (#19515893)
Can you elaborate on the first issue?
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by chupasaurus on Thursday March 28, 2019 @06:57PM (#19517488)
You can make a certificate with multiple principals, but in order to add/remove some group access you'll have to reissue the public cert (and add previous to CRL with removal of some), which is OK for short-lived certs. With multiple issuers, you can add/remove public keys for different CAs but the resulting meta public key will be a set of keys actually.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by cyphar on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:14PM (#19506691)
That is what cross-signing will accomplish, but the benefit of having per-device granularity is that users can actually tell if a new (potentially-malicious) device has been added to a conversation and be blacklisted.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by platz on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:15PM (#19506693)
> this problem with PGP

Isn't keybase just doing something similar to subkeys for devices?

Keep the master safe, if you need to revoke a subkey, no big deal.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by gnomewascool on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:28PM (#19506817)
My very naïve understanding is that in the keybase model there's no master, just several keys which can sign each other, so you can lose any of the keys (as long as it's not all of them), unlike in the PGP model, where you can't lose the master.

In practice, though, as long as you protect the master key appropriately, the PGP model isn't that much worse (and possibly in some ways better — I'm not sure what happens in the keybase model when one of your devices is compromised, rather than just lost, and you don't notice for a while).

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by UncleMeat on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:39PM (#19505087)
This works great for incredibly tech savvy people who have an offline way of verifying public keys. This is completely and utterly useless for 99.9% of whatsapp's 1b+ users. Heck, how many times have security-aware software engineers blazed through the "THIS KEY IS NOT TRUSTED" warning from ssh?
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by BenjiWiebe on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:07PM (#19505428)
I ignore the ssh key not trusted only if i know why it isn't trusted.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by zepearl on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:47PM (#19506419)
Same here, at least privately - it happened a couple of times that I renewed or changed for whatever reason the key on some server and a few days later when I tried to connect using a secondary device I got the warning, which made me go to defcon-2 for at least a few minutes, hehe.

On the other hand, at the company I work for, internal machine certificates/keys are renewed without my involvement (I'm a so-called "IT-owner" of some apps and the infrastructure that the apps use), and therefore I get the warning when connecting to their Linux hosts but each time (few times every few years, but still...) I dismiss it hoping that it's because of the work of the admins renewing the certificates (clarifying who-did-what-when would be a potential major administrative undertaking) => this is absolutely a flaw of the internal processes.

Yes, it could be fixed by a more complex infrastructure, but again, if the internal processes are weak then even the more-complex-infrastructure could be compromised by side-attacks.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by ndnxhs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:38PM (#19506902)
Same. If I reinstall the OS on my raspberry pi I will ignore the warning. I once had an issue where using the WiFi hotspot on a coworkers phone caused the SSH warning to trigger and neither of us could work out why. I did not ignore that warning.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by cyphar on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:10PM (#19506659)
Matrix's new key verification UX is incredibly intuitive. You press a button to verify the keys and then you out-of-band check that you're both looking at the same set of 7 emoji. This mutually-verifies both devices. I don't think it's possible for it to get any simpler.

With cross-signing, this will get even easier because cross-signed devices will be automatically trusted.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by uhoreg on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:50PM (#19505218)
Yes, our (Matrix's) cross-signing feature, which we're currently working on, sounds similar to the solution presented by Keybase in this blog post.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by Arathorn on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:57PM (#19505946)
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by zepearl on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:15PM (#19506699)
Just fyi, about "Matrix" (not directly related to this specific post, but I still wanted to mention something about it...):

I started testing "Matrix" using the "Riot" app on Android and the web-frontend ~4 weeks ago and so far things look good, which I think is fantastic!!!

I was especially happy to see that I could not read messages posted prior to me entering any encrypted chatrooms => gave me a real "good general feeling".

The "Riot"-app for Android (using it on SailfishOS) is so far quite intuitive and it did never crash so far. Battery consumption is relatively heavy (I used to charge my phone once per week, now it's once every ~3-4 days) but I guess that other users that have more frequently an active Internet connection (because of other apps) will be impacted less.

All in all I'm beginning to think to try to push it to my friends - I think that the first attempt might be to use an encrypted group chat for special themes (e.g. discussions about algorithms, stock market discussions, etc..., all what we do not dare to post in Whatsapp) to have a technical advantage vs. Whasapp & Co. .

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by ndnxhs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:36PM (#19506882)
Yeah the security of matrix + riot seems like the best of its kind. The issues come from the extra security causing some things to be a bit of a bad user experience but its getting better.
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by IshKebab on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:10PM (#19504033)
Yeah that sounds like it doesn't really solve it at all (yet).
Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by cyphar on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:46PM (#19508351)
It does partially solve the issue of continuing to send messages without any sort of warning -- new devices mean your messages won't send unless you hit the "send anyway" button (and in your settings you can disable the send anyway option).

It also solves a problem that Keybase has which is that all new devices are automatically trusted (so a compromised device can just register more devices to avoid being blocked). To be fair, this makes for a pretty bad UX -- and the Matrix folks are working on cross-signing to make this easier -- but it is very useful for a user to be able to detect new devices to be detected (especially their own).

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by zobzu on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:02PM (#19506592)
yup, one big issue is the warning coming up too often, not making it more visible or forcing it in like matrix does.

because then you just end up with less people on the system, so you'll talk to them over unsafe channels.

keybase's opinion is definitely my opinion so im a little biased there, but so far i can't think of anything that's better than making the reset occurs as rarely as possible by using multiple devices for recovery.

Re:Keybase is not softer than TOFU by ajvs on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @03:10PM (#19504798)
Yeah usability-wise it's not the greatest right now until those features get added, but security-wise it's better than Signal/WhatsApp in warning you about detected new keys.