News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Winter War by avar on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:00AM (#19492444)
Why do so many of these articles on the Winter War just narrowly focus that particular conflict, instead of covering the Continuation War as well?

Was it a fundamentally different sort of conflict after what amounted to a brief ceasefire, or is it just politically expedient to ignore that the Finns continued fighting the Soviets shortly after the Winter War as allies of the Nazi regime?

Re:Winter War by varjag on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:06AM (#19492514)
The brief cease fire was 1.5 years. While the two wars are certainly linked, they were separate campaigns different in many military & political aspects.
Re:Winter War by swebs on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:41AM (#19492822)
>Why do so many of these articles on the Winter War just narrowly focus that particular conflict, instead of covering the Continuation War as well?

You kind of answered your own question there. They're two separate wars. Of course articles on the Winter War would focus on the Winter War.

Now you may ask instead why the Continuation war doesn't get as much coverage as the Winter War. Well because it frankly isn't as interesting.

Re:Winter War by gabbygab on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @01:48PM (#19494265)
They aren't two separate wars. They are two campaigns within the same war.

You wouldn't divide ww2 into two separate wars because the germans and the soviets were allied in the first half of ww2 ( when they invaded poland and divided europe in half between them ) and then they fought a war against each other in the 2nd half.

The "continuation war" doesn't get much attention because of political reasons. Just like much of europe ( including france, most of scandinavia, netherlands, belgium, ukraine, etc ) underplays their cooperation with nazi germany for much of ww2 when nazi germany was on the ascent.

As they say, the first casualty of war is the truth. This applies not only during the war, but post-war as well.

Re:Winter War by jcranmer on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:30PM (#19495235)
I've been of the opinion that it's simply easier to analyze the era from ~1914-1945 as one long era of war with ill-defined boundaries of conflicts, rather than looking at WW1, Russian Civil War, Spanish Civil War, Second Sino-Japanese War, WW2, and a host of other smaller conflicts (including Continuation War and the Second Italo-Ethiopian War).

As a practical matter, the European/African theater against Germany/Italy and the Pacific theater against Japan are two separate wars that happened contemporaneously and with some powers fighting the two wars at the same time. The Continuation War was in large part pushed by the Germans to extend the front of the USSR, and as such is essentially part of the Eurafrican WW2, although the Finns did not entirely cooperate in actually pursuing Axis objectives.

This does show the difficulty of drawing firm boundaries around the wars in this era.

Re:Winter War by azernik on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @05:07PM (#19496025)
With 1.5 years and a formal peace treaty between the two "campaigns", they are separate wars by all measures.
Re:Winter War by mongol on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:28PM (#19495215)
Well, the Winter war was concluded with the Moscow Peace Treaty. I think peace is a natural delimiter of war.
Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:01AM (#19498843)
Sort of, but even in Finland, the Moscow treaty was called "interim peace" (välirauha) already before 1941, indicating that it was obvious that the European war will again spread to Finland's borders again.

The Soviets occupied Baltic countries, and continued and increased the political and military pressure against Finland already by late 1940, so that Finns did not believe it really is "peace".

Many unfortunate incidents worsened the situation; for instance, the day when the new Soviet ambassador arrived in Finland after the Moscow peace treaty, Finland had a national day of remembrance for the fallen soldiers (akin to Memorial Day in US). With about 25 000 men lost just few months before, this was of course done with flags in half-mast throughout the country and the mood was solemn and grave.

But the new ambassador did not know this, and he thought Finns are just demonstrating against his arrival. A wiser ambassador would have known better, but Stalin preferred ideological purity and refusal to listen to facts.

Re:Winter War by sampo on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:09AM (#19492537)
Allying with Stalin's enemy (Hitler) was pretty much the only option for Finland (population 3.7 million) to keep the independence against the Soviet Union (population 170 million). But after 1944, having been allied with Germany became highly unfashionable, so we try to be a little quiet about it. But we don't apologize for staying independent.
Re:Winter War by wespiser_2018 on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:49AM (#19492911)
Yea, it was an impossible position for Finland to be in, for exactly the reasons you mention: very small population, and potential to be washed away by they wave of Soviets rolling west in 44-45. All told, I think Finland conducted itself pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Finland
Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:41AM (#19492819)
This is a bit of a diversion from topic, but the population of Soviet Union, and how it was calculated, is a very interesting issue.

Stalin expected a fast population growth, and when the 1937 census showed that he was mistaken, and population of USSR was only 162 million, Stalin had statisticians sent to the GULAG and some were even executed. After that, many tried to avoid being nominated for top jobs, out of fear for meeting the same fate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937)

This kind of dictatorship and purges of competent people certainly lessened the capabilities of Soviet Union, lead to the unexpected result of the Winter War, and greatly increased the losses of USSR in the coming great war.

Re:Winter War by peisistratos on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @02:05PM (#19494459)
> This kind of dictatorship and purges of competent people certainly lessened the capabilities of Soviet Union, lead to the unexpected result of the Winter War, and greatly increased the losses of USSR in the coming great war.

It's quite a feat to lessen your capabilities, and still be able to repel an invasion by all of Europe (sans England, as well as smaller countries like Switzerland, Ireland etc.)

The other view is Stalin had loyal cadre around him during the war, and did not have lieutenant colonels with links through the high command making bomb attempts against him.

Re:Winter War by dragonwriter on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:33PM (#19495259)
> It's quite a feat to lessen your capabilities, and still be able to repel an invasion by all of Europe

Most of Europe was being attacked (or actively suppressed) by Germany, not attacking the USSR with Germany, and even Germany was fighting on other fronts, so it wasn't even “all of Germany”.

Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:06PM (#19495011)
Well, not "all of Europe" was attacking USSR, Germany had fronts also towards Britain as well as North Africa, and USSR did get an immense amount of material support from the USA.

It is quite clear that USSR's surprisingly weak performance in Winter War did encourage Hitler to think that he could crush Soviets with a quick summer war.

Re:Winter War by LifeLiverTransp on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @02:18PM (#19494570)
Also, at the time- it couldnt get much worse then stalin, for most invaded countries. The ukraine had the holdomor and enthusiastically joined the german "liberators" in driving sovjet forces back.

Of course, these "national" liberation movements where double betrayed when the german racism became obvious.

Re:Winter War by microcolonel on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:09AM (#19492536)
Given a choice between a free but war torn Finland with blood on its hands, and a Soviet Finland, I think it's hard to imagine much preference for the latter from the perspective of a Finn.
Re:Winter War by sampo on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:11AM (#19492554)
Everybody in WW2 has blood on their hands anyway.
Re:Winter War by peisistratos on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:21PM (#19493216)
Tens of thousands of Finnish workers gave their lives during the Finnish Civil War because they preferred a Soviet Finland to the bourgeois, Nazi-aligned country it became.
Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:29PM (#19493318)
In 1918, they hardly did understand what they were preferring. By 1939, they did (after land reforms and many other policies that improved the lives of the losing side of civil war).

In 1939 Finland was Anglophilic rather than Nazi-aligned, but it's not a good setup when friends are far away and weak, and enemies are close and strong.

Re:Winter War by eMSF on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:50PM (#19493556)
Well that's just simply not true. Firstly, there weren't "tens of thousands" of casualties; secondly, not all the "reds" fought for a Soviet Finland, and certainly not to be a part of Russia; and thirdly, as far as the conflict had anything to do with Germany, it was the Imperial Germany of the old. Resisting Nazis was certainly not in anyone's mind, that's for sure.
Re:Winter War by microcolonel on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:32PM (#19493358)
In retrospect, surely that seems foolish. The Soviet union was effectively renting the country to the Finnish people. The Nazi political dream failed rapidly, and the Finns were granted an otherwise-unlikely generation of prosperity without the failing Soviets' noose around their necks.

There was no practical way for them to align themselves with anyone but the Nazis or the Soviets, so whether you like what the political class became in that context or not, it's not as though the people had a choice between liberal democracy and state socialism, and picked the latter.

That people with uncertain, unpleasant lives were taken in by Soviet propaganda is no surprise. Some people still believe the things they learned from Soviet propagandists to this day.

Re:Winter War by int_19h on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @03:23PM (#19495175)
Were they to win, how many of them would later perish in events similar to these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion

Re:Winter War by jpatokal on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:14AM (#19492583)
The Continuation War doesn't have the same kind of simple, plucky David vs Goliath narrative. Small country strikes back to reconquer lost territory with Nazi help, goes a bit beyond the original borders, tacitly contributes to the Siege of Leningrad and the death from starvation of hundreds of thousands of civilians, is beaten back to where they were during the Winter War and then some when the Soviets finally have some men to spare, then switches sides and allies with the Soviets to fight against the remaining Nazis, who proceed to go lay waste to most of Lapland as they retreat... Not exactly Hollywood material.
Re:Winter War by osullivj on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:36AM (#19492778)
The Soviets were allies of the Nazis at the time of the Winter War, and it's been expedient for many to ignore the Nazi Soviet pact since.
Re:Winter War by sbmthakur on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @01:46PM (#19494244)
Calling them allies is a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not defending the Soviets, they certainly played their role in Nazi imperialism(supply of raw materials, carving up Poland and so on). But a non-aggression pact doesn't automatically make them allies. Poland had also signed one with the Nazis and they helped themselves to annex a part of Czechoslovakia before the Nazi invasion of Poland. And we know that Poles and Nazis were far from allies.
Re:Winter War by varjag on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @02:14PM (#19494534)
They fought same war on the same side, against same enemy, simultaneously. Ended it with bilateral military parade. Supported each other with training and materiel right until summer 1941. Sounds like allies to me.
Re:Winter War by sbmthakur on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @02:42PM (#19494805)
> They fought same war on the same side, against same enemy, simultaneously.

Are you referring to Poland? Well, Nazi plans to expand into the east were well known. As for the Soviets, a buffer with the Nazis was paramount. Not justifying their actions but looking from their perspective they were able to delay the war by two years. Even if the enemy was same, the objectives were vastly different. However, the enemy wasn't really the same considering Czechoslovakia, which the Soviets wanted to defend.

> Ended it with bilateral military parade. Supported each other with training and materiel right until summer 1941.

The parade was more or less just a show-off to fool each other. Just like how India-China have military drills(despite having territorial disputes) to soothe each other. Nazi-Soviets did have trade but from Soviets' perspective it was more likely done to avoid war.

When you say allies, what comes to my mind is US-UK or US-Israel relationship. Nazi-Soviet relationship was nothing close to that. I would agree with you if it we had been discussing this in 1938-41. But we have the benefit of hindsight.

Re:Winter War by varjag on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @04:12PM (#19495574)
Look, it was more than drills, they partitioned Eastern Europe and fought a campaign together. They were allies for all purposes unless you are specifically set on nitpicking. That they were enemies afterwards does not negate that. Opportunistic alliance is an alliance none the less.
Re:Winter War by freshm087 on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:30PM (#19497962)
When you say allies, what comes to my mind is US-UK or US-Israel relationship.

It's quite a narrow view, I dare to say. There's no need any for any stable special relationship, or even shared objectives to form an alliance. Expecting some sort of positive returns is quite enough. E.g. since Germans attacked USSR the latter became ally of UK, and then US in spite of the fact that Soviet ideology made it a natural enemy to both (and predictably USSR became an enemy once Germany lost).

There was an addendum to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (Secret protocol) which was a plan to divide Eastern Europe between two empires, and it means Soviet-Nazi allyship in 1939 was neither an accident, nor a forced decision.

Well, Nazi plans to expand into the east were well known.

It's not correct in the context. While wish to expand Reich was certainly known, Hitler didn't publicly advertize any clear plans regarding territories under Soviet rule. And Stalin obviously trusted Hitler because he personally discarded intelligence indicating German war preparations as ridiculous. Soviet press in line with party directives kept neutral, or friendly tone towards Germans till the moment of the invasion.

Re:Winter War by pmoriarty on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @04:44PM (#19495848)
"Nazi plans to expand into the east were well known. As for the Soviets, a buffer with the Nazis was paramount."

If that's the case, why was the Soviet Union so spectacularly unprepared for the German invasion?

Re:Winter War by greedo on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @08:42PM (#19497267)
The Soviets also helped retrain the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe in secret camps/bases before Hitler was strong enough to tell the Allies to pound sand when they complained about violating the Versailles Treaty.
Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:28PM (#19493298)
On social media platforms, pointing out the common Nazi-Soviet victory parade in Brest-Litovsk tends to get a lot of negative attention from Russia-minded activists (one often wonders how many of those accounts are real, but perhaps it is unimportant).
Re:Winter War by ptaipale on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @06:03AM (#19499407)
And the downvotes on this comment work as a proof...
Re:Winter War by dmurray on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @11:16AM (#19492607)
Exactly the latter. If Russia had stayed on good terms with the West after the war, instead of being retconned as a villain, Finland would only be mentioned in the history books as an evil Nazi ally.
Re:Winter War by eMSF on Tuesday March 26, 2019 @12:43PM (#19493484)
You don't think illegal invasion of Poland and much of the Eastern Europe qualifies you as a villain without "retconning"?

See, the only thing they had going for them was the "enemy of my enemy" thing, and that just wasn't the case after the war, for that enemy did not exist any more, unlike everything else they had done.