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Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by zarriak on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:18PM (#19434570)
I really don't understand why people here aren't talking about the real underlying principle of this service. Google has captured the education and cheap laptop space with chromebooks. This is the logical extension of that software. Sure they will eventually combine chromeos and android but this is one more step in the direction of everything happening inside of your web browser.

The entire reason this is happening is because Google has successfully captured what once was the holy grail of markets, education, and is doing things like this to keep people on chromebooks.

ChromeOS could be as important than Android. Especially with the Windows 7 extended life support coming up, Google has less than 4 years to convince people to transfer to their platform instead of Windows 10. I know it seems heretical to imply that it will happen but I think this is a good example that Google considers it not only a real possibility but something that they might actually have a good chance of being able to pull off.

The most important thing to realize is that they are focusing on gamers as a trial, the people who are price sensitive and who have to move first off of Windows 7 since they can't pay for extended support even if they wanted it. They can then continue this into the workplace. This is a brilliant move by Google.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by _wmd on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:13PM (#19435259)
An alternative explanation might be that it's a buffer for overprovisioned GPUs for an undersold Cloud service
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by wmf on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:06PM (#19435875)
GCP uses Nvidia but Stadia uses AMD GPUs so they're not sharing hardware.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by zarriak on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:29PM (#19435455)
It could also be a way for AMD to get a ton of GPUs sold after oversupply due to the mining boom/bust.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by iandanforth on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:08PM (#19435900)
The GPUs are custom for Google.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by puzzle on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:15PM (#19435965)
Do we know custom how? It might be the same chips with different microcode or whatever GPUs' equivalent is. Is it a custom spin like Intel has been doing for years for Google and Amazon?
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mtgx on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:38PM (#19434834)
What worries me is that I read about this being "Chrome-only".

Google is not just trying to win in console gaming space here - it's trying to establish itself as the browser monopolist and it seems to be doing it without much subtlety.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ocdtrekkie on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:47PM (#19434940)
And of course, only Google can build it's game service into it's own browser, and into it's own video sharing site, and into the Play Store. Stadia is Google utilizing multiple of it's existing monopolies to enter into a new space. It's also a major shot at Twitch, not just traditional game platforms like PlayStation and Xbox, since streamers will need to be streaming on YouTube to take advantage of things like Crowd Play.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by fastball on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:25PM (#19435405)
There's a difference between having a monopoly and being the best product in the market.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by noir_lord on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:19PM (#19436026)
I'm not sure, if you drive everyone else out the market then you are by elimination the best product in the market (since at that point you are the only product left).

Monopoly laws exist for a reason and hard experience and I'm of the opinion that a single large player having complete domination even if they also have technical superiority is something that probably should be broken up.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by aylmao on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:11PM (#19436589)
> I'm not sure, if you drive everyone else out the market then you are by elimination the best product in the market (since at that point you are the only product left).

I think this can be read in two ways:

1. You're the only product, therefore you're the best (and the worst too, at the same time I guess). In which case I want to point out you can be a monopoly without controlling 100% of the market. There are usually always smaller competitors around— you just happen to have a share large enough or the assets necessary to control what happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. De Beers, for example, was considered a monopoly when it controlled 90% of the world's diamond production.

2. You're the one that came on top in a market with other competitors. Therefore, you must be the best.

This is assuming the only way to eliminate players off the market is by being "better" than them, but that is sadly not the case. For example— in Mexico there's a monopoly over the telecommunications business, and part of the reason it happened and stayed that way was due to support from the federal government and political corruption. Microsoft has had monopolies over several software markets— not because they were "better", but because if a better product came to be, they'd either buy it or build one that was built-in to Windows. IE was pretty bad, in many ways worse than FF, but also came built-in.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by noir_lord on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:23PM (#19436679)
Completely agree with both your points, you can also be a monopoly in a less direct form of corruption via regulatory capture, there are lots of ways for smart rich people in charge of massive companies to bend the system their way.

Democracy and a free press in theory should act as a retarding measure but somehow that’s gone off the rails more (or I’m more aware of it than I used to be and it’s always been that way), social media and the internet has changed the landscape, We have a sitting president screaming fake news at news where they have incontrovertible proof..often his own words from previous speeches and interviews.

The world has gone haywire and at a time when globally we need more unity to address the issues facing us as a global society the very bastions of that global society are getting beaten with a stick.

I wonder what the world is going to look like 2050, I’ll be 70 if I’m still around.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by fixermark on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:18PM (#19436019)
What would stop someone from building a Stadia competitor as a Native Client app?
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by mercer on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:41PM (#19436271)
Google's infrastructure, as well as Chrome, Google Accounts and Youtube. Budget too, I suppose.

I mean, this doesn't stop competitors, but it's quite the moat to climb.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by shpx on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:01AM (#19438840)
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by jedieaston on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:10PM (#19435922)
They specifically said they are looking into making the client browser/platform-agnostic, which they'll have to do anyway if they want it on iOS since you aren't allowed to run anything but the Safari engine for web browsers (of course, they could build a native client).
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by kerng on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @06:02PM (#19436497)
When they say agnostic it will mean proposing and implementing web standards that they push through and other browsers dont support yet and have to catch up on - look at all the browser extensions they came up at light speed. Like WebUSB, not to say that they had very serious security flaws also.

Google uses open standards and business practices to appear like the good guys, but make no mistake they are abusing their market power.

I mean when will you see ads of Stadia on the Google homepage? What happens when you will search for Assasins Creed in future? Oh, look we have it right here at Google, no need to leave our ad platform.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by baumandm on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:46PM (#19434930)
I feel like there's a lot more low-hanging fruit that could be added to the Chrome experience to win people over, rather than building a relatively expensive game streaming platform.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ergo14 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:36PM (#19434806)
Unless I'm mistaken ChromeOS is only used in US schools on a wide scale.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by noir_lord on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:17PM (#19435994)
The only Chromebook I've seen anywhere is the nice one I bought my mum for Christmas year before last, she loves it and I've had no issues supporting it (like not a single one, she uses it constantly as well).

I've got a school age stepson nothing there either.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by superfrank on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:24PM (#19437232)
Give it a couple years and they will be everywhere. I used to work for a company that sold a monitoring and filtering product for school computers.

It's only been in the last two or three years that the ecosystem around them has really matured enough that they can compete with Windows machines and iPads on anything other than price. With the way schools' budgets work, we've really only just passed the early adopter stage.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:22AM (#19440035)
Not with the hardware division being downsized.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by superfrank on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @03:04PM (#19445641)
Are you referring to Google's hardware division? If you are that doesn't really mean much.

Most schools aren't buying fleets of Pixelbooks. They're buying chromebooks from companies like Acer and Asus which make devices that retail in the $200-400 range.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:59PM (#19446857)
Yeah, but someone needs to actually develop ChromeOS, without Pixelbooks management might decide to focus elsewhere.

And right now from the outside it feels like there is a ramping internal politics going on with ChromeOS, Android, PWA, Flutter, Fuchsia, Kotlin, Dart teams, with upper management giving free reign and let the best win kind of stuff.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by superfrank on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @07:09PM (#19447905)
> Yeah, but someone needs to actually develop ChromeOS, without Pixelbooks management might decide to focus elsewhere.

I really, really doubt that. I don't think you understand how ubiquitous Chromebooks are becoming to the education space. Last I heard, in the US, 60%+ of all school provided computers are Chromebooks. School SysAdmins love them because they're dirt cheap and can be provisioned quickly.

From Google's perspective it's great too. Between Google Classroom and the way chromebook device management works, students have to have a google account to be able to go to school. There's rules on what data can collect, but still, kids are forced into the Google ecosystem at a young age.

ChromeOS doesn't need the pixelbook to survive, it provides an enormous amount of value on its own.

> And right now from the outside it feels like there is a ramping internal politics going on with ChromeOS, Android, PWA, Flutter, Fuchsia, Kotlin, Dart teams

100% agree there. I've been hearing for the past 3 or 4 years that Android and ChromeOS were going to be merged and nothing has yet to come of it. It seems like even Google doesn't know what is going on there.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:27AM (#19449450)
Check the worldwide market share, Chromebooks are less than GNU/Linux desktops.

Being only king of US school system isn't something that holds long term in a product roadmap.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by superfrank on Thursday March 21, 2019 @04:43PM (#19457115)
> Being only king of US school system isn't something that holds long term in a product roadmap.

Dude... I'm sorry but you are so wrong. Like I said originally, I literally just left this industry after working in it for years.

US spends more money on education than pretty much any other nation, both per student and as a total dollar amount. The reason the numbers are so low world wide is because chromebooks in education are a relatively new concept. Everyone has been going after the big fish, which is the US.

Additionally, they way you need to handle student data in the US is fairly consistent across state lines, which means you don't need to customize your solution very much to be able to sell to all 60 million students. Once you go overseas, you'd need to sell across multiple country lines to be able to find a pool of students that big (unless you're targeting China, Russia, or India which all have their own issues).

If you don't believe me, here's a blog post from a few years ago where google literally say ChromeOS is here to stay and then they focus heavily on it's benefits to education. https://blog.google/products/chrome/chrome-os-is-here-to-sta...

Even if you want to ignore all of that, I don't think you realize how much of a PR nightmare it would be if Google just stopped supporting ChromeOS right now. Schools have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars buying into this ecosystem. For schools that buy at the district level, it's in the millions. Most schools/districts don't have the budget to just replace all their computers overnight. Shutting down ChromeOS would pretty much fuck all digital learning in a lot of school districts for years to come.

PS. I'm pretty sure iOS's adoption numbers US & worldwide (not in schools, just total consumer adoption) match up pretty closely with Chromebooks, so there goes your idea that only dominating the US market isn't a viable business strategy.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Thursday March 21, 2019 @05:57PM (#19457778)
Should I list all products that Google has written blogs about they being here to stay?
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by superfrank on Thursday March 21, 2019 @08:01PM (#19458531)
Sure. I'd love a list of all the products Google has canceled (not merged into another offering) after coming out on their official Google blog and saying they are here to stay.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by JediBurrell on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @07:24PM (#19447991)
The source that claimed Google was downsizing their hardware division said that they moved "dozens" of employees. Just last year they finalized an acquisition of 2,000 employees from HTC. What difference is some dozens?

Furthermore, the source didn't exactly do a great job with their research. This is a direct quote:

>Pixelbook is a Chromebook, meaning it runs on Google's Chrome OS software and is only capable of using internet-based applications.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by pjmlp on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @04:28PM (#19435443)
Worldwide it has even less market share than GNU/Linux desktops.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by thejj100100 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:46PM (#19434923)
My school uses them in the UK but I believe that's a minority. A lot more schools seem to use iPads instead.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by smadurange on Saturday March 23, 2019 @10:44PM (#19473854)
Not common in Singapore. We do use computers in schools. Usually Windows or Macbooks. Same goes for univerties.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by botto on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @03:55PM (#19435028)
There is a wide deployment in Norway I believe, but indeed, I've not heard of big deployments elsewhere.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by richdougherty on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @08:06PM (#19437522)
Common in New Zealand too.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by eanzenberg on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:34PM (#19436197)
What you smoking foo?

>>The entire reason this is happening is because Google has successfully captured what once was the holy grail of markets, education, and is doing things like this to keep people on chromebooks.

Care to share how this tidbit is true?

>>The most important thing to realize is that they are focusing on gamers as a trial, the people who are price sensitive and who have to move first off of Windows 7 since they can't pay for extended support even if they wanted it. They can then continue this into the workplace. This is a brilliant move by Google.

What gamers are still on Win7? Most are already on 10. Most legit gamers care about input lag, which a streaming service will never solve vs. having hardware wired to your monitor. Most legit gamers use a wired mouse for gods sake because of input lag introduced to wireless mice.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ulkesh on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:04PM (#19437058)
> What gamers are still on Win7? Most are already on 10.

Care to share how this tidbit is true?

Sorry to use your words against you, but I'm not so certain. I'd like to see real statistics from a few sources. I agree that Windows 7 is surely phasing out, but anecdotally (which is where most conjecture like yours and mine come from), I know a number of people who specifically stayed on Windows 7 for two reasons: 1) Compatibility with games; and 2) No telemetry (or at least it's considerably minimal compared to Windows 10).

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by kipchak on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:50PM (#19438457)
Steam's hardware survey is probably the best measure available, and puts W10 at 68% and W7 at 27%.

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ulkesh on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @09:45AM (#19442053)
Maybe, but I would like to see more than the one source. HN is becoming filled with people who tend to make such generalized statements without much to back it up. Your link helps, so thank you! I would love to see more data and less speculation around here :)
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by bbradley406 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:51PM (#19438463)
Re: the survey - the type of person who remains on Windows 7 due to concerns about 10 would be more likely to opt out of the survey, or not use Steam in the first place. I would put the number for Windows 7 a little higher at maybe 30%.

I expect the number of Windows 10 players to increase as DX 12 becomes a common requirement, but we're not quite there yet.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by muststopmyths on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @10:48PM (#19438444)
>Care to share how this tidbit is true?

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

I would say 60+% qualifies as most. On the other hand, ~25% is not negligible. So you both win ?

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by fwip on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @09:24PM (#19437996)
Windows 10 supports more modern games and consumers outside the nerd sphere don't care about telemetry.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ulkesh on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @09:42AM (#19442017)
I suppose, then, that ignorance is bliss. Because once I explained Windows 10 telemetry to my own parents, they opted to run Linux. They're nowhere even close to the penumbra of the nerd sphere. But, it is anecdotal, though it does rebut the notion that ALL consumers outside the nerd sphere don't care.
Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by stcredzero on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @05:55PM (#19436422)
> doing things like this to keep people on chromebooks.

Care to share how this tidbit is true?

Lots of filthy casuals just care that they can game. If they can, somehow, why shouldn't they buy the Chromebook? Hell, if that's what they had in school, they might have grown up to like precisely the genres of games that are easy to design around the lag.

Most legit gamers care about input lag

The majority of people don't notice < 40ms round trip lag, though "legit gamers" often do notice. < 30ms, round trip lag, and few people outside of hardcore FPS players will notice. Get to < 20ms, and you get down to rounding error levels. Don't just ask me. (Hobbyist game dev.) Ask gamedevs and companies who have conducted testing.

40ms roundtrip lag for most of the world seems pretty achievable to me.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by iknowstuff on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @07:13PM (#19437129)
> ping google.com

Pinging google.com [172.217.5.110] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 172.217.5.110: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=50 Reply from 172.217.5.110: bytes=32 time=8ms TTL=50 Reply from 172.217.5.110: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=50 Reply from 172.217.5.110: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=50

Ping statistics for google.com: Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 6ms, Maximum = 10ms, Average = 8ms

https://imgur.com/a/eLWFUg3

I'm on GDC public WiFi.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by saberience on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @08:32PM (#19437667)
> ping google.com

--- google.com ping statistics --- 12 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 74.750/75.566/76.724/0.587 ms

I'm on 1GBit Google Fibre in Orange County which should be as ideal an experience as could be expected. Now, considering there would be additional time on top of the pure ping, I image there would be 80-90ms of latency for me. No way lol.

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by ash663 on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @09:32PM (#19438039)
I'm not sure why are your pings that high. I just asked my friend in an Asian country about his pings, and he averages out at 5ms to Google. Meanwhile, my average is 1ms in the US.

Pretty sure both of us have a Google datacenter nearby, but could the result of your ping be due to a bad configuration on your router?

Re:Google unveils Stadia cloud gaming service by stcredzero on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @08:34PM (#19437687)
I image there would be 80-90ms of latency for me.

I could totally make RTS and other real-time games work with that.