Californian in Dublin - I feel embarrassingly overpaid in Ireland. But every time I go to the US, I feel embarrassingly underpaid.

My wife and I went from California to Ireland, then back to California for a year, and when she used up her whole 1 week of vacation and we realized even in tech we'd never afford a house where our kids could walk to a decent school, we moved back to Ireland.

I'd make 2-3x as much in the US, but I wouldn't be happy.

Also - "TRUE vacation " - WHAT THE FUCK is up with Americans who think it's appropriate to bug people about work on vacation. Or to have "unlimited" vacation policies and act surprised when someone wants to take what would be _the legal minimum_ in a lot of other countries. And sticking people on pagerduty half their goddamn lives. Seriously, fuck right off to hell.

It's evil.

The thing to do is to work in the US for a while making a much higher salary, but living as cheaply as possible and banking all that cash. Then go move somewhere where you can enjoy quality-of-life.

Three things:

1) Part of the idea is to make work more pleasant, not endure a bunch of misery and then retire happily.

2) I'm alive now. Tomorrow, I might not be. The idea that we should be miserable in the present for a happy future doesn't sit well with me (I've already used up 35 of my years of life!). Around the time I hit 30 I was startled how friends started dying. Not loads, of course, but the rate definitely is creeping up. The mom (and baby) who died of eclampsia really struck home and reminded me that you do not save the best for last. Tomorrow Is Not Guaranteed.

3) Life is a series of closing doors, so they say, and there are huge chunks of life where picking up and moving to another country is completely impractical.

Got a husband/wife with a career already going? Hope you're ready to throw out their career or get divorced. Got a kid in a school they like? Kiss that goodbye. Already in a career and think sticking around a couple years will push you further up the ladder? Better just wait a while longer, than longer still, and longer still...

Also I graduated college in 2008 and it was a bloodbath. I couldn't get interviewed for ages, and I get plenty of interest now. For any young'uns it's hard to convey just how different (and awful) it can be. And I had it pretty good - at least I was employed. BUT it meant that I wasn't throwing away a career to move to Europe - I had a pretty mediocre job anyway. In a sense, I should be grateful I had the freedom to know I wasn't really losing much by leaving.

>1) Part of the idea is to make work more pleasant, not endure a bunch of misery and then retire happily.

I never recommended spending your entire career living someplace miserable. It doesn't take very long to save up a nice amount of cash if you're working in a tech job.

Tons of Frenchies do that. Hell, thats basically Docker. A bunch of smart Frenchineers that wanted to get paid what they're worth for a while. Im talking about founders and those first 100 hires. But it seems as soon as they want to have kids its right back to France.

Do you mind sharing what role/salary you were offered in Dublin?

I was offered 35k for a junior role, but declined it as that seemed pretty low (especially taking into account housing difficulties there).

That does sound low. I started a junior role for a big company at 33k back in 2010. Every year that jumped significantly for new hires. I hear some java houses are still low balling though...

I moved to Paris from San Francisco. The startup I joined uses English as its working language, so the language barrier hasn't been a problem at all. Also I found French to be relatively similar to English and quite easy to learn. It's been a huge joy being able to speak to people in a second language. I've wanted to learn a second language for a long time and I finally have a good reason to do it.

Also there are interesting startups in Paris outside of fintech, like Alan (where I work), Algolia, and Datadog. Airbnb, Facebook and Google have offices here as well I believe.

I've never been to Berlin, so I can't really compare, but I really enjoy living in Paris so far. I certainly like Paris more than San Francisco.

I wrote a blog post about my move a few weeks ago: https://medium.com/@kkwteh/why-i-moved-from-san-francisco-to...

The salary in the parent comment it's out off the charts. What do you think of Parisian salaries? Most devs make 2618 per month after taxes which is barely enough for a very modest life. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Really not true in my experience. For senior devs with one or two solid infra/CLOUD/multi app deploys under their belts. Hired.com and LOCAL french recruitment firms (talent.io) regularly send me Paris intramuros based (forget idf) offers between 70k-100k depending on the job.

My first job offer upon arriving in France was 110k at Thales as a lead DevOps Sngineer. Red Hat EMEA offered me 100k as a solitions architect.

I ended up taking a lower offer but in a much more relaxed environmemt at Publicis Groupe in the 11eme. If you aren't hitting the pavement doing inteviews and keeping yourself up to date, and be willing to jump from time to time, you will miss out on higher salaries. France is slowly realising they have to match a bit more with the rest of the world.

Most devs get between 45k(2618 euros per month after taxes) and 55k(3074 euros per month after taxes). Paris being on the top 3 most expensive cities in the world. 225k would account for 10125 per month after taxes, but in Paris thats unheard of.

Don't forget Doctolib

It's interesting that you're moving to Berlin for a higher salary. I thought Berlin was infamous for very low salaries, but perhaps that's only among junior developers.

Like everything, ymmv. You are correct about lower junior salaries but taken in the context of an even lower cost of living...go to Berlin. Also sounds weird to say but germans are 1000x nicer and more welcoming than the French. Berlin good stuff is that the tech scene soeaks English, all the hot iot, telekom, autonomous vehicle stuff is in berlin and its the cheapest of the cities to live in. I am coming from a background around 10 years in the industry with a lot of finance and defence experience. Plus I just always apply for 5 jobs then let them duke it out ;)

From personal friends, I know you can get paid >120k EUR if you have 5-10+ years of experience.

I would be interested to know what these friends do.

From my personal experience in game-dev in Berlin, the highest earning coding individual-contributor (so not a manager) salary I ever saw was 70-something €k per year (and it is quite rare to go above €65k even as a very senior programmer).

You will literally have to be C-level at a large and succesful company to earn €120k+ as far as I can tell (in this sector).

Game development is famously underpaid. After all, you're competing with wide-eyed 23 year olds with no bills or family who have dreamed of making games their whole life.

I was apparently pretty well paid at my last job (Game Dev) at 68k EUR a year.

Also, note that a lot of Europeans quote salary after tax, which can make a big difference.

    you're competing with wide-eyed 23 year olds

Not for senior/lead roles (I've done hiring in several companies). There are lots of people competing for junior roles but its still not that easy to recruit true seniors (10+ years work experience).

> salary I ever saw was 70-something €k per year (and it is quite rare to go above €65k even as a very senior programmer).

That's my impression as well, of the job market in Berlin as dev contributor in many industries. There exists just rock solid ceiling at 70k EUR and that's it. No idea about stricte managerial roles but these are oftentimes reserved to native Germans and the competition is beyond fierce so forget about it (unless you are Abmahnung, Betriebsrat, and Arbeitsrecht virtuoso).

I’ve not experienced managerial roles being reserved for native Germans in the Berlin tech industry at least - had plenty of non-German managers.

Haven't the game industry always relied on offering a "dream job" to underpay?

Sure, I expected web devs to earn maybe €80-90k but not €120k+

I cannot confirm this at all. I have some friends who work in Germany (I left several years ago to the US), and even those in senior tech jobs with years of experience only get up to ~80k EUR and the sky-high taxes push that down to <50k.

I'm working in Munich in a reasonably senior role (but <10 years, of which <3 years at that company), total compensation is ~120k Euros before taxes. It's not super common, but it's definitely possible.

Literally the exact same offer I accepted for me, but in Berlin. I prefer Bavaria but all my biz is in Berlin. +1

In my experience this salary is only available for team leads and only in some companies. Certainly not for 5 years of experience.

However sometimes there seem to be like parallel realities when it comes to salary.

At $225,000 what was your total compensation and did that include healthcare (which is basically universal at that salary)? If you're earning that much, essentially all of your healthcare costs should be getting covered by your employer, as would be typical (it's typical at half that salary).

I can easily understand a preference regarding culture and ease of transit, however it's hard to believe that 20 subsidized lunches per month is a perk worthy of losing a million plus dollars per decade over.

That was total comp. I was a Solutions Architect at Dell EMC. But I worked 60 hour weeks, did the usual client facing bs, used my own time to fill out reimbursement forms yaddayadda. Id rather make 80k in France any day of the week.

When I was studying a buddy got a programming job and his salary was insane, or at least I thought it was.

Then I learned he never worked less than 10 hours a day, usually more like 12, and a lot of weekends etc. Effectively he worked 1.5x a normal job here. Taking his salary and dividing by 1.5 I got something which was quite mediocre.

Thats it exactly. The math lays bare the truth of the hampster wheel in the usa. And Europeans rarely overwork. Its weird to be in the office after 7. In france its illegal for my employers to contact me after hours or on the weekend or when im on sick leave.

At the end of the day time is one thing you can’t easily buy - even if you’re making out like a bandit you can’t pay to work fewer hour or get more vacation days (it’s possible sometimes but I always had a much harder time negotiating for those than for higher pay).

You realise that peace of mind, a social safety net, paid maternity/paternity leave, walking home while the sun is still out, etc. all are infinitely more important than overworking just to get the next Porsche SUV or whatever.

Peace is it's own reward.

>walking home while the sun is still out

While the rest is all true and great, this one isn't true in western Europe for a good chunk of the year. Remember, Europe is at a higher latitude than the US, so the days are really short in the wintertime. Expect it to get dark by 4pm or so.

WELCOME to Germany! <3 Lovely and smart people all around, great foreigner scene and startup scene as well, so you’ll never feel alone. People super open and approachable, love Americans :))

> 225kUSD/yr

That seems insanely high by European standards. That is well above what I would expect even a CTO to make.

That’s what he/she was making in the United States.

I understand that, but I still find that to be extremely high. I'm in Denmark, a country that's known for high cost of living and high saleries to match, and I wouldn't expect a senior dev/ops/sec position to pay more than half that.

Its not high if you live in NYC or SF. Its above average but not by much.

It's normal for people to be paid $120k/y straight out of college in SF Bay Area. $225k/y is normal for seniors.

Total comp for a Senior SW Engineer at one of the big tech companies would be 300-400k/yr.

Amsterdam is pricey and the salaries are not that good, if you want to come for the experience sure go for it. But to settle in? Think twice.

Rent in Dublin is ridiculous too.

Ah, the magic of the Tiquet Resto and 38 days of paid vacation/year ;)

Is that literally a meal voucher?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal_voucher

Yes, usually 10-20 Euros a workday.

For a fair comparison, look at contracting/freelance in Europe. You will have the same social safety net and benefits as the US (i.e. none) and the pay will be around 160kEUR per year (180kUSD) with 7 weeks of holiday. Given our lower cost of living you might even be better off.

Welcome to Berlin! Make sure to check out the Factory coworking space Friday night social event, and lemme know if I can be of any help!

How do the post-tax salaries (Paris vs US) look like? I’m asking because France is reported to have the highest taxes in the world.

I live and work in Paris. My net income after taxes, social contributions, etc is 65% of my gross salary.

This includes the new prélèvement à la source, so in theory I shouldn't owe additional taxes next year.

I personally calculate every mandatory contribution that comes off my gross salary as "taxes" even though many people will disagree. IMHO, it's mandatory, it comes off the top, so it's "taxes"

I wouldn't consider 35% of my gross salary as being overly high, considering the excellent quality of life here. I cannot comment on how this compares to US taxes since I've never lived or worked there.

The taxes/quality of life I experience in Paris is similar to what I had living in Germany.

Given that we have so much vacation here, rent is reasonable, and infrastructure is very good (I can be in Brussels in 2 hours with the TGV) it's unlikely I'll ever move back to Canada.

From what I've read, France is using a trick (used by other countries in Europe as well, Poland for example) where the "gross" amount stated on your employment contract is not the real gross amount, because the employer pays additional taxes (invisible to you) on top of it. So, effectively the employment contract is taxed on both your end and employer's, for a total 50%+ of effective taxation. I suppose this trick is used to not make people angry when they see their payslip.

> France is using a trick (used by other countries in Europe as well, Poland for example) where the "gross" amount stated on your employment contract is not the real gross amount, because the employer pays additional taxes (invisible to you) on top of it.

You mean (insofar as this is a trick), just like the US does?

I do not know US taxes, if US does that as well, then I guess the trick is just too good to not be used. If you're wondering if this is a trick at all, just read some tax theory, where they define a well-constructed tax as (amongst others) one that brings lots of revenue and does not create lots of resentment/social unrest in return.

>> My net income after taxes, social contributions, etc is 65% of my gross salary.

It certainly depends on your income?

IT workers' salaries would fall into 30% income tax rate category anyway. Should be noticed that french taxes for EEA residents are made of household total income divided for spouses, so one might pay less.

>> 225kUSD/yr in usa to 95kEUR in Europe

95k is about 50k after taxes and other no opt-out insurances and social taxes. Most EU countries have VAT 19-24%.

I usually compare USA with Western Europe using factor 2 (3 for Eastern Europe). So, if you get $150k in USA, you have to get €50k in Budapest to have similar quality of life.

In my experience, even with that VAT, everyday stuff in Germany is still significantly cheaper than in America. Plus, all the prices in Europe include the VAT, unlike America where the taxes are secret and unknown until you get to the register and your bill is higher than what was advertised.

Yeah, salaries are terrible in Paris. I work here, most places offer between 45k and 60k a year which after all the taxes accounts for 2618 and 3354. But most people get 2618 per month. A 30m2 apartment is 1200 euros minimum. So devs here live a very modest life.

Are you single? I know the blue card extends to spouses so just curious if you had a partner with you and if they also wanted to work in Europe

Wait you can get more than 95k in Berlin as a developer?!

As a fellow developer in Berlin, that sounds pretty outrageous! I'm making half of that.

Welcome to Berlin, great ecosystem over here, would love to hear your experience in Paris sometime

I get paid 250K EUR in Geneva for writing deadbeat Scala code for Banks. I doubt anyone can match that in Europe

I am straight out of ETH Zurich so my experience is negligible.

Switzerland is an outlier in many aspects for Western Europe :)

And not only in terms of earning - look for example at benefits you get for having kids (amount of parental leave, cost of kindergarten, etc).

It’s like a weird capitalist Enklave in the middle of Europe. I’ll bet a lot of people thought of having kids in Germany or Austria and moving to Switzerland after a few years of taking advantage of generous benefits for having young kids in the former.

What is also common is to live at the border in one of those or France/Italy and cross the border every day. That way you take advantage of the higher wages and lower living expenses respectively.

You're lucky. I talked to Lombard Odier some time ago and they pay their Scala devs 120-130k CHF tops.

250k for a software engineer is quite a lot in Geneva, and even Switzerland. Only Google regularly pays that much after a few years of experience.

Saying I am lucky downplays my hardwork which I put through the university. I hope are you aware of my investment or commitment to studies which got me here

For someone who works in finance, you should understand that the market for software engineers in Switzerland simply doesn't pay this kind of money. The average salary of an ETHZ new grad is 80-85k CHF. You can be the top of your class from MIT or whatnot, companies aren't going to triple their entry-level range to hire someone with zero experience, just because they put a lot of effort through university.

I know top 1% students from ETHZ and EPFL who then did PhDs and postdocs under world class professors. They'll probably never get close to 250k if they stay in Switzerland. Even after 20 years on the job.

How did you come across the job posting ? And also whether you are Swiss should also make a difference as to whether you get the job ? Whats your take ?

I highly contemplated both Zurich and Luxembourg because of my finance tech experience (SocGen, BoA, Wells Fargo, Goldman Stackzzz). I love Switzerland.