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Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by zoobab on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @04:01AM (#19261984)
Welcome to 2019 where an "embedded" system has 1GB RAM.

The problem of GO is that all those unused libraries are loaded in RAM instead of staying on disk, and loaded when needed.

An helloworld in GO (around 1.6MB) is still too large for my openwrt router.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by ithkuil on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @04:08AM (#19262014)
Like every process, the text segment is demand paged so it doesn't consume ram unless it's actually needed. What you probably mean is that multiple copies of the same library cannot share the same physical memory pages.
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by 05 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @04:40AM (#19262122)
Nope, they mean there's no flash memory available on the resource constrained device to store megabytes of useless runtime. Routers/other IOT Linux devices regularly use SPI ROM chips sized 4MB..16MB, you can't just install a 100MB Ubuntu/Arm rootfs on those.
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by londons_explore on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:03AM (#19262210)
I think the days of the small SPI flash chip are numbered.

A a few hundreds of megabytes of flash will soon cost less than the plastic and manufacturing costs of the chip itself. At that point, manufacturers will be putting in 128megabyte flash chips simply because 16 megabyte flash chips cost more.

The only place that argument won't apply is in microcontrollers where the flash is on the same die as the CPU.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by rkangel on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:07AM (#19262449)
I think you're seriously underestimating both cost sensitivity, and the degree to which chip packaging evolves.

I worked on a bit of premium consumer electronics. Retail would be about $80. That allowed an electronics BOM cost of $20. When selecting the processor, the size of the flash was a more dominant effect than RAM, clock speed or chip peripherals, because we're in the $1 vs $1.20 region.

There is a lot of software running in some very cheap electronics, all around you all the time. Everyone just forgets because it's all designed in corporations and not talked about on the internet so much.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by 05 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:44AM (#19262359)
SPI chips are unreasonably expensive per MB compared to NAND, some reasons on why: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/32200/why-is...
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by mgoetzke on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:46AM (#19262372)
and why would you run k3s on these ...
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by zoobab on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:18AM (#19263021)
LXC runs fine on openwrt, and uses very few amount of RAM compared to docker.

I still do not understand why you need hundreds of MBs of RAM for a container orchestrator.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by znpy on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:24AM (#19262281)
> Welcome to 2019 where an "embedded" system has 1GB RAM.

Thirty years ago someone could have said the same when seeing laptop computers and remembering when computer literally used to occupy whole large rooms.

Come on, let's stop doing this kind of jokes, they add nothing to the discussion.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by rkangel on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:11AM (#19262465)
The problem is that the bottom end of 1k RAM still exists. In fact, because the main change is that it gets cheaper every year, it's even more prevalent. Just because there aren't lots of blog posts, doesn't mean that isn't a large proportion of the industry.

The word 'embedded' is not well defined, but if you use it on things with 1GB of RAM, what do you call a PIC with 1K?

My personal definition of embedded (which is of course still flawed) is anything without an MMU. A Raspberry Pi isn't embedded for instance, it's just a small computer, just like a phone.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by geofft on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:14AM (#19263000)
Then what do you call a server with a CPU+MMU for its remote management or an iPhone with a CPU+MMU for its secure enclave? A cluster?

There is certainly a lot of technical merit in calling the five-inch thing in my hand a distributed system of multiple computers, but in practice it's not the common definition.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by znpy on Saturday March 02, 2019 @11:48AM (#19289914)
> The word 'embedded' is not well defined

> ...

> My personal definition of embedded (which is of course still flawed) is anything without an MMU

Probably "embedded" would better be defined as an electronic device capable of performing digital computations small enough to be put literally into other stuff, usually everyday things.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by detaro on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:48AM (#19262892)
And nobody has suggested to use it on such tiny devices. "Embedded" spanning a large range of devices isn't new. 20 years ago, mainboards for high-end x86 CPUs of the day that were made to be put into industrial devices were already called "embedded". Because they're embedded into machines etc.

If you mean tiny devices, why not say "microcontroller" or something?

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by james_s_tayler on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @01:43PM (#19265772)
>The word 'embedded' is not well defined, but if you use it on things with 1GB of RAM, what do you call a PIC with 1K?

_very_ embedded

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by hoffs on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:11AM (#19262719)
1K ram embedded device surely doesn't even exist in compute scenarios where kubernetes operates. There's very different fields
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by vidarh on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:37AM (#19262323)
We're still in a place where there are millions of embedded devices out there in actual real world use where these resource constraints are real.
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by oblio on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:06AM (#19262698)
Would you put or even need Kubernetes for those devices?
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by pjmlp on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:53AM (#19262643)
Using MicroEJ, RTOS, Zephyr, mbed and other OSes to target Cortex-M4/ESP32 devices already allows for lots of possiblities with 512KB.

Yes 1GB is huge, my Windows Phones are capable of so much with a tiny portion of it.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by otabdeveloper1 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:15AM (#19262493)
At some point in time, the physical realities of electrons and metal wires will kick in. Then the growth will stop and you'll start kicking your own ass about performance and pointer arithmetic and cache policy.

Maybe that point in time is now, maybe it isn't. But it is coming nonetheless, that is one thing we can be sure of.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by oblio on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:07AM (#19262702)
True, but not for all developers.

For at least 50% of developers, the "physical reality" is that of gathering client requirements quickly and accurately and implementing them correctly and on budget.

Not of micro-optimizing CPU cache hits :)

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by otabdeveloper1 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:44AM (#19263144)
You missed the point.

A day will come when CPU speeds and RAM sizes will stop increasing. When that day comes you don't be able to ignore performance, because a lack of performance will mean actual, real-world dollar costs for the client, and so performance will be the #1 requirement of the client.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by 12298765 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:32AM (#19263826)
CPU speeds haven't changed much in 10 years, and to be honest, I would argue that performance has been getting worse and is not a priority for many/most developers.

The client doesn't seem to care, and just sees the 5-20 second webpage load times as totally normal (at my company/industry at least). Our applications are horrifically slow, but we're still the market leaders in our segment

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by otabdeveloper1 on Thursday February 28, 2019 @04:53AM (#19270208)
> The client doesn't seem to care, and just sees the 5-20 second webpage load times as totally normal

Yes, but will they tolerate 2 minute page load times? 10 minute?

At some point reality kicks in and you start to have to care about the nuts-and-bolts hardware.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by oblio on Thursday February 28, 2019 @11:16AM (#19272403)
Most of the time those things are caused by gross development errors, not by cache hits. Stuff like looping while sending an individual SQL query for each record.
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by oblio on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:34AM (#19264277)
I didn't miss it. For the vast majority of applications, which are Line Of Business (LOB) applications, performance doesn't really matter. It's good enough.

LOB applications are made to replace humans and they need to be a multiple of times faster than human operations (+ the extra benefits of automation). And the vast majority of them are. And most programmers are working on those applications.

So there's 0 incentive for what you're saying.

The real heavy lifting will be done, as usual, by a handful of people: OS devs, DB devs, game engine devs, runtime devs, etc.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by james_s_tayler on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @01:48PM (#19265819)
Implying nobody would bat an eyelid at performance problems in LOB applications...
Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by eeZah7Ux on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:04AM (#19262213)
...and where a 40MB binary is called "small".

And it has to run on every node even if the worker nodes are just running workloads.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by pjmlp on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:48AM (#19262624)
Go has support for plugins (OS X and Linux only currently).

However unlike Modula-3, Mesa/Ceda or Oberon(-2)/Active/Component Pascal they are load only instead of being possible to unload them, and they require manual binding of symbols.

For this kind of system work a more feature rich dynamism is certaly a big missing feature.

Re:K3s – Lightweight Kubernetes by detaro on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:52AM (#19262911)
Are you saying this because the page mentions IoT, or what brought this on? To me, the page doesn't suggest that they want it to be used on many embedded devices...