News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by Animats on Monday February 25, 2019 @12:03AM (#19243114)
He's right, of course. The Linux community has been in denial about this for years.

At the kernel level and close to it, the areas that consistently give trouble are video/GPU support and audio support. GPUs are hard, but there's no excuse for the mess in audio persisting for a decade. Video/GPU support is tough, but the current situation, where you have a choice of five different NVidia drivers for the same board, all with different bugs, is not good.

As the author points out, regression failures are a big problem. The sheer bloat of Linux has made it unmaintainable. And who wants that job? Big chunks of important code are abandonware.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @06:06AM (#19244709)
> The Linux community has been in denial about this for years.

That's not right. We all know support for some hardware is spotty and we all have learned to avoid that. My laptops tend to use Intel GPUs, for instance, because I want to work on them, not fix them.

I'm eyeing that new Lenovo thingie with an epaper keyboard, but I know it'll run Windows and probably never be upgraded because nobody will write the drivers to keep that thing alive past Windows 12.

> you have a choice of five different NVidia drivers for the same board, all with different bugs

Stop buying NVidia hardware. They actively sabotage Linux development. AMD is much better in that regard. Buy AMD instead (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-Hiri...).

> The sheer bloat of Linux has made it unmaintainable.

Nope. It's still moving forward and it's still quite reliable. All my workloads run on it (except my pets that run on FreeBSD and OpenIndiana because I get a kick out of managing different OSs).

> Big chunks of important code are abandonware.

There is a process to move obsolete codebases out of the kernel. That's why you can't use one of those half-IDE CD-ROMs that came with "multimedia kits" of the early 90's.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by sametmax on Monday February 25, 2019 @07:55AM (#19245244)
> Nope. It's still moving forward and it's still quite reliable. All my workloads run on it (except my pets that run on FreeBSD and OpenIndiana because I get a kick out of managing different OSs).

That's the denial there.

I'm a Linux guy. I post this from a linux distrib.

But realistically, we do have a huge amount of technical debt, and less and less incentive to work on them.

Case in point: every time we touch something to improve it, we break things for one year or two. Pulse audio ? Took 4 years to be stable. Systemd ? 3 years at least. Network manager crashed for 6 good years, and still can't work decently with sleep mode.

We manage to provide features because the linux kernel devs are incredibly competent. They also limited the bloat to a manageable stack on their side. But around that it's the far west.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by jim-jim-jim on Monday February 25, 2019 @08:16AM (#19245355)
If complexity's got you down, you might have better luck with OpenBSD. Coming from Linux, you'll be amazed by how simple it can be and how much of it just works.

Though non-intel graphics are still shit on it afaik.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by sametmax on Monday February 25, 2019 @09:18AM (#19245727)
Linux has already usability issues because it's a niche. I'm not going to use a niche of a niche.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by AsyncAwait on Monday February 25, 2019 @03:12PM (#19248964)
> Case in point: every time we touch something to improve it, we break things for one year or two. Pulse audio ? Took 4 years to be stable.

Honestly, it seems to me like what you're complaining about is the nature of FLOSS development i.e. we do it in the open and collect feedback from users rather than spending billions we don't have on focus groups.

Also, I remember early PA days and it certainly did not take 4 years to be usable, but it did took Ubuntu about that time to get it right. That's however a problem of holding Ubuntu as the Linux disto, which is honestly a whole separate rant I could get into.

As for systemd and 3 years, I am honestly not sure what you're talking about. I've been on it since 2012 and it has been mostly smooth sailing since the beginning.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by Tenoke on Monday February 25, 2019 @09:30AM (#19245826)
>Stop buying NVidia hardware. They actively sabotage Linux development. AMD is much better in that regard. Buy AMD instead.

Sadly if you work with Deep Learning buying AMD is a surefire way to make most of the work published by others unusable without serious effort.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @11:18AM (#19246655)
Is the number crunching side as terrible as the visualization side?
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by pjmlp on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:25PM (#19248005)
OpenCL is very limited versus CUDA in terms of language support, tooling and libraries.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by i_live_there on Monday February 25, 2019 @09:15AM (#19245703)
> AMD is much better in that regard. Buy AMD instead

I made that mistake... https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1562530

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @09:36AM (#19245872)
Sorry to hear that. Is returning the machine an option?
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by michaelmrose on Monday February 25, 2019 @03:57AM (#19244118)
People aren't in denial people are by and large aware of the issues an average person experiences when using Linux and the resources or lack thereof available to reverse engineer an entire universe of unfriendly hardware vendors work to enable joe blow to take his $399 walmart special and install linux on it.

If people want linux on the desktop to offer a more polished experience the only way about it is for everyone to put their money where their mouth is.

If "Linux" were a company we would be justified in demanding a fully finished product before buying but free software is a resource that already benefits billions even if they only interact with it via android, or web services.

"As the author points out, regression failures are a big problem. The sheer bloat of Linux has made it unmaintainable. And who wants that job? Big chunks of important code are abandonware."

This seems to be unsupported supposition that we are supposed to take as received wisdom.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @05:58AM (#19244673)
Sorry, but chances are the $399 Walmart special uses an Intel chip with integrated GPU and, because of that, will work out of the box. Perfectly.

Lack of hardware support happens mostly on the other end of the spectrum, with very high-end graphics cards no kernel developer has ever seen from up close and multi-card setups that are essentially unique. I feel sorry for the people who need that but unless hardware manufacturers start to properly document their stuff, make it available to Linux kernel developers and START PAYING MONEY to have drivers developed (like vendors do with Windows) it'll not improve.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by sametmax on Monday February 25, 2019 @07:58AM (#19245268)
> unfriendly hardware vendors

You mean people with economical pressure to be profitable ?

As a Linux user, I know I represent a fraction of the market. I'm grateful when people invest in us, because I know it's a great move in principle, but it's not always one money-wise.

Building hardware is HARD. Selling is HARD.

Being dismissive to the people not being able to provide linux support is not going to win them to our cause.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by michaelmrose on Monday February 25, 2019 @02:36PM (#19248647)
Unfriendly is assholes who ship hardware that neither follows standards nor bothers to ship with documentation. I'm not dismissing them nor will we win them over to any side because they aren't even part of the conversation they only converse with oems buying millions of units.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:39PM (#19248116)
> You mean people with economical pressure to be profitable ?

Selling more hardware is usually good for a hardware manufacturer. So is having fewer people returning their equipment because it doesn't work.

> not being able to provide linux support

Most kernel developers would be ecstatic just with proper documentation of the hardware being sold.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by sametmax on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:49PM (#19248219)
> Selling more hardware is usually good for a hardware manufacturer. So is having fewer people returning their equipment because it doesn't work.

It all depends of the ROI. In hardware the economy at scale is at play, and it doesn't go well with niches.

> Most kernel developers would be ecstatic just with proper documentation of the hardware being sold.

I agree. That's mostly a matter of culture. Many companies won't publish docs, because they are either afraid of competition, pirating, or looking stupid.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by zaphirplane on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:08AM (#19243409)
The nature of open source development is there are duplicates. The distribution usually takes chooses from the alternatives the better option and makes it the default. In the GPU driver issue you are raising what is the problem. Fedora comes with nouveau out of the box and you can install an alternative very easily. You may have a gripe but proliferation of alternatives is an unusual gripe, there are multiple browsers music players videos players file editors and even multiple DE options I guarantee if there was one music player option there would be a lot of people unhappy and a new project starter immediately
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by nitrogen on Monday February 25, 2019 @02:32AM (#19243756)
I've been using Linux on the desktop since Mandrake was a thing; if there's one thing I'm tired of it's having the "choice" of five broken implementations of an app rather than just one that works (the reverse is also annoying, when one broken monolith crowds out five working predecessors).
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by AsyncAwait on Monday February 25, 2019 @04:16AM (#19244193)
As someone who also uses Linux since Mandrake, I am tired of people telling me there should be just one desktop, file manager etc. There needs to be competition in FLOSS also, nowdays I use both desktop environments, depending on the hardware and mix and match components. For example I prefer Okular even on GNOME.

If people so desire a 'unified experience', you have Windows/macOS. I came to Linux as a refugee from these and am tired of the attempts to pull it in the same direction. Not everything has to be the same, in fact that's a terrible world to live in.

I am also tired of people saying things on Linux are "broken", they aren't any more broken than on macOS/Windows. Granted, you may have to get compatible hardware, which is only fair considering that's what you're doing when purchasing a Win/macOS machine and yet on Linux there's somehow this grand expectation that any random cram HW should just work. You don't expect anything not designed with macOS in mind to work there, so why Linux?

I use macOS at work and experience not so rare kernel panics. There was also just a bug in Premiere blowing up speakers on the MBP, being allowed to log in without a password, APFS logging encryption password in plain text etc. Yet somehow no-one is as strict on that as insisting on Linux somehow 'not working' even as am sitting here being productive on it for over a decade.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by alxlaz on Monday February 25, 2019 @05:58AM (#19244677)
I've been using Linux since about the same time, and while I find the five-broken-implementations thing rather exhausting at times, I am more than thankful for it. It's one of the reasons why Linux (and FOSS software) is so damn useful.

Just look at Windows land, where they do have one implementation to rule them all, more or less (Windows 10). Everyone who dislikes its telemetry or almost touch-only interface is either stuck with Windows 7, which won't be an option for much longer, or is stuck venting against Microsoft and grumpily installing hacks like ClassicShell to make things a little more bearable.

When Gnome 3 came up, everyone who liked the new direction kept using it, everyone else moved to Cinnamon or Mate (or XFCE, KDE...)

It's not just about competition, it's about being able to pursue different visions and different objectives.

Users only see this in terms of choice, but there's a great deal of value about it for developers as well.

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by bluedino on Monday February 25, 2019 @08:08AM (#19245316)
I really want to know how GNOME 3 even saw the light of day, and why distros like Fedora even went with it. Unusable.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by rbanffy on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:46PM (#19248192)
I'm using Gnome shell since the early days and, so far, I'm very happy with it. But, then, I also use macOS on my Macs and I'm very happy with them too. All of them run everything I throw at them just fine.

I find the lack of options to customize GNOME irrelevant - I'm way past the day I cared about the wallpaper or the icons or the colors of the window chrome. I pay attention to what's inside the window, not its border.

The other day I fired up a Solaris 10 VM so I could give Wikipedia a proper Solaris/CDE screenshot and I was surprised it's actually still usable - the terminals are responsive and the rest, oh well... You don't want to use a GUI to copy files, do you?

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by pjmlp on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:28PM (#19248032)
Easy, Red-Hat used to pay the salaries for a big chunk of GTK/GNOME developers.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by AsyncAwait on Monday February 25, 2019 @03:15PM (#19249002)
GNOME 3 is also far from universally deemed unusable, (I use it daily with great success), despite what the propaganda would have you believe.
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by pjmlp on Monday February 25, 2019 @03:27PM (#19249114)
I tried to use GNOME 3 after Ubuntu dropped Unity, and it never performed like Unity, hence I am now using XFCE.

The latest updates, show there is still work left to do in this area,

https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/monday-25th-february-2019/995...

Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by alxlaz on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @10:00AM (#19254759)
Pretty much this, I'd say. I know people who like its design and find it very comfortable. I'm definitely not one of them but fortunately no one heeded the calls to just build one desktop environment to rule them all :).
Re:Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018) by JeremyNT on Monday February 25, 2019 @12:34PM (#19247451)
> At the kernel level and close to it, the areas that consistently give trouble are video/GPU support and audio support.

... is this true? As a long time desktop Linux end user, whatever these lower level issues are, they've not been visible to me in at least a decade.