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Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by frankwiles on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:44PM (#19221274)
We ALL need to be against 24/7/365 “on call”. I did it for 10 years. It not only sucks, but I’m confident hurt my overall productivity. If it’s not important enough to hire a backup or two, it’s simply not important.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ams6110 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:28PM (#19222008)
One of the advantages of getting older is that you develop some perspective on crap like this. I never check work email at night or on weekends anymore. And I just tell people "no" when they ask me to do work stuff on a weekend. The world continues to turn.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by randycupertino on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:37PM (#19222061)
I think this is why companies often have a bias towards hiring naive younger workers- they're more likely to be cool with being exploited and haven't established any healthy work/life boundaries yet.

I worked somewhere that "specialized" in hiring younger newish grads from the midwest. They'd bring them out to the Bay Area, pay them way under market. The people would put in a year to two years at $75k working 70 hour weeks before they realized it was an intolerable and nonsustainable situation. The younger people were more excited over the free lunch and pingpong tables to care about comp, let alone making rent.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by kokokokoko on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:11PM (#19222795)
Not only that, but those hours put your hourly rate around $20. Which is about what you would make as an assistant manager at a retail store in the Bay Area.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by falcor84 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:27PM (#19222314)
> The people would put in a year to two years at $75k working 70 hour weeks before they realized it was an intolerable and nonsustainable situation.

Indeed unsustainable, but getting that experience and Bay Area connections might quite likely be a rational career choice for these grads

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by krageon on Friday February 22, 2019 @04:07AM (#19224024)
This is a variant of "do it for the exposure", which is deeply disrespectful to anyone's time and dignity. Regardless of whether or not you are right in terms of money made, society as a whole would benefit if we stopped playing that particular rigged game.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Bekwnn on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:37PM (#19223174)
Do you think it's better than spending that same time socializing with coworkers outside of work? Because it isn't.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by gnu8 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:56PM (#19222458)
Negative, those things are external to any employment position and not something an employer is entitled to discount salary against.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by duado on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:02PM (#19222480)
Employers can do whatever they want if the employees are OK with it. When I was 22 I signed up for a job that kept me in hotels 250 nights a year. I loved it but now with kids would obviously tell any such job to go fuck itself.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by jacobreg on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:30PM (#19222621)
Sure, but companies have a heck of a lot more bargaining power than individuals. I don't think "this didn't cause large numbers of employees to quit" means that this was okay.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by malloreon on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:56PM (#19222744)
this sounds like Palantir to me
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by jtd514 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:36PM (#19222355)
sounds like the game industry
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by godelski on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:42PM (#19222382)
I'm not old, but I tell people that I don't check work emails when I go home. But I give the offer that they can call me. Usually this leads to almost never being contacted on the weekend or after hours, and only really when there is a dire need. People seem to be more hesitant to call or text than send an email, and so this method works. But that's part of the implied condition. I think it is fair to call someone after hours for emergency type stuff, but not typical work stuff.

Doing this has facilitated a healthy work life balance and I believe leads to better productivity.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by tfigment on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:25PM (#19222604)
I basically do the same. We are critical development/operational support so I have to have on-call support and do so 1 week at a time with primary and backup (I'm implied 2nd backup if not higher in chain). But my google voice number is only listed on the official schedule website and not in the company contact database so only those that need to know know.

The best thing that ever happened to me was company implementing a lockdown policy so that email/chat/... are only allowed from company assets so I am totally cutoff from work via my phone except through that list and the best part is it by the companies own policy. I only get true emergency calls now.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by godelski on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:43PM (#19223194)
Sounds like a good pitch for recruiting!
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by sebazzz on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:50PM (#19222967)
It might be my bubble, but it is also a more of a team spirit thing. I live in a country with good laws regarding employment and my young coworkers in my team don't work outside office hours and don't read email. In other teams in the same business unit of the company it is a whole different story.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by innagadadavida on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:48PM (#19222961)
It is more tricky when some of this will show up on your perf review and the bonus/RSU grants reflect it. I’ve seen some people circumvent all this by taking sick days liberally and just tow the company line. Any other advice to handle thes situations nicely balancing work/life/$$$ ?
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by president on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:55PM (#19222148)
As a result, you're probably the first to go in a layoff scenario. Maybe it's not a problem for you but for many, it is tough to regain footing after getting axed.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ryanmcbride on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:17PM (#19222261)
Any company that lays me off for having boundaries is a company I don't want to work for. Work-life balance is pretty much the _only_ think I optimize for when looking for jobs now. I'm fine being flexible once in a while but if the default assumption is that I will be available on slack every night, I'm not gonna stay there.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by president on Friday February 22, 2019 @12:46PM (#19227317)
Agree completely but the amount of decent companies with work-life balance is rare in the Bay Area. If they exist, they won't for long.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ryanmcbride on Thursday February 28, 2019 @12:09AM (#19269072)
Startups I agree, but working for a more mature company makes it much easier to find this balance. Also, unlimited remote means that I don't _have_ to find a job in the Bay Area. The tradeoff there though is that Non-Bay companies offer much less compensation.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by dasil003 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:00PM (#19222753)
Depends entirely on management priorities. I make sure to never take a job that judges me on butt-in-seat or mean-time-to-email-response. That way I can build skills that actually matter and take that to my next role whether it be at my own startup, in mgmt at bigco, or as a consultant.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by arvinsim on Friday February 22, 2019 @03:21AM (#19223876)
People who value work-life balance won't be happy working there anyway.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by sjg007 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:57PM (#19222160)
Ah yes.. Logan’s run logic.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by commandlinefan on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:26PM (#19221631)
What I can't reconcile is the prevalence of this type of abuse (along with many other types of abuse) when we're supposedly hard to find, hard to replace and hard to retain. I don't expect the rock star treatment, but there are a lot of positions that are MUCH easier to find people to fill who are treated with a lot more respect or, failing that, at least not with utter contempt.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by WrtCdEvrydy on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:32PM (#19221669)
You have to come to an understanding that the reason a place is shit is because of this. Revolving doors are actually worse than just a morale problem. Someone quitting isn't just leaving your company, they're taking everything they know about the systems at your company.

My favorite move in tabletop strategy when doing disaster recovery is finding the most important person at the table and going 'Bang, you died driving to work, you can stay but you cannot help anyone'

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ohithereyou on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:43PM (#19222086)
>hard to find, hard to replace and hard to retain

You only get this line if you're a US citizen as justification as to why H1B visa quotas need to be increased. If you're here on an H1B visa, you get reminded daily that your replacement is waiting back in your home country, you can be replaced with a single phone call, and you better have a plan to get all of your things and family back to your home country quickly when you get bounced.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ardy42 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:18PM (#19223083)
> You only get this line if you're a US citizen as justification as to why H1B visa quotas need to be increased. If you're here on an H1B visa, you get reminded daily that your replacement is waiting back in your home country, you can be replaced with a single phone call...

No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. Right now, there's a lot of paperwork and the H1B lottery that means it's non-trivial to get a new H1B worker into the country. Increasing the quota would make it easier for the employer to act like H1B would be replaced on a whim, and actually create the scenario you're complaining about.

> ...and you better have a plan to get all of your things and family back to your home country quickly when you get bounced.

Knowing a lot of H1Bs, this is the real reason H1Bs can be exploited and bullied. Their visa is tied to the employer, which gives that employer way more leverage over the employee than over a citizen or permanent resident.

The real way to fix these problem is to keep the quota, but remove the control the employer has over work visas (by making them easily portable). That way, the employer can get the talent they need if there's really a shortage, but they'll have to pay market salaries and provide reasonable working conditions to the immigrants.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by iceninenines on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:36PM (#19222354)
Sounds like slavery.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Frost1x on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:53PM (#19222732)
Indentured servitude with a new name basically. My friend works in the health industry and I can confirm this. The second he got his greencard, everything changed as far as employer abuse. Now it's just the typical abuses we all deal with.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by SatvikBeri on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:38PM (#19222368)
My question is how common this abuse is in software, vs. elsewhere.

If I had to guess based on my friends/family, first jobs are horribly abusive for 100% of med school graduates, 90% of law graduates, and 20% of software engineers. That 20% is common enough that we hear about it all the time, but it's still much less frequent than other high-paying jobs.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by zoeysaurusrex on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:20PM (#19222572)
I’m not 13 years into my career (three under the table at a hometown co and ten professionally), I’ve had the mom and pop shop experience, the big corp experience, and currently the startup experience. I’ve found the same abuse everywhere, but it’s not always caused by top level executives. I think the abuse in software has a dynamic that other industries don’t have. A lot of product managers and IT managers don’t understand what we do (and I say that on behalf of devs, ops people, the whole works). They want to look good for their executives and they overpromise, or they start treating us like garbage because they are afraid not to have anything to show in their weekly updates with their boss.

When product managers and CIOs don’t have anything to show, we get tossed under the bus. I’ve never been a fan of the dev unionization movement, but I’m becoming more of a fan it by the day. I think of how I feel after having given my all to my career, and I can’t imagine how young H1B professionals feel when the abuse they put up with is far worse than what I’ve dealt with.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Frost1x on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:04PM (#19222768)
Unionization doesn't have to be inherently bad. It is possible for well disciplined unions to be an overall positive force for both sides of the coin. Sure, there are plenty of negative aspects to unions but there's also a lot of negative aspects to having limited bargaining power. I personally believe growing rampant abuses in this industry is starting to warrant it.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by hinkley on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:04PM (#19222492)
I can't quite sort it out either, but sometimes it feels like we are treated like favored pets.

We're expensive, sure. Difficult to replace, absolutely. But you know that sooner or later you will be, and in the meantime you only get limited privileges.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by daveFNbuck on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:27PM (#19222860)
I don't think that analogy works at all. Pets are cheap and easy to replace, but a favored pet is unlikely to be replaced sooner or later.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by president on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:08PM (#19222221)
Abuse happens and goes unchecked because people are willing to take it for large sums of money. Or in some cases keeping a job. Doesn't help that there is no punishment for treating people like sub-humans either.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by rmc on Saturday February 23, 2019 @10:02AM (#19233571)
One easy answers: We're suckers.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by vmware505 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:19PM (#19222278)
You guys should come to New Zealand... working outside of your work hours is not cool here. More and more companies expect only 37 hours per week... a new trend is 4 days workweeks.

Nobody checking their email or phone after work... Ridiculous.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by UnpossibleJim on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:35PM (#19222348)
Ummm, we want to but New Zealand ISN'T TAKING PEOPLE ANYMORE! I looked into it =( it super bummed me out.

EDIT: I should say, from the U.S. anyway.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by wyclif on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:20PM (#19222570)
Whatever do you mean? I still see NZ companies hiring USA engineers.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by amacbride on Thursday February 21, 2019 @09:34PM (#19222636)
Yes, but now with restrictions on buying property. (It makes it much less of an attractive proposition.)
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by nicoburns on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:16PM (#19222819)
Same in the UK mostly (although there is a bit of this culture in London). I remember my first job, it got to 5pm and my boss gently prompted me to go home. He was happy to let me stay if I wanted to on occasion to finisb something off, but made clear that it wasn't expectsd or the norm. It's something I've stuck to ever since.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mirceal on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:59PM (#19221431)
yeah. totally agree. i call bullshit on being available 24/7/365 when you're the only person doing the job. even if you ignore the implications this has on you, this is a terrible idea if only from the redundancy/keeping the lights on kind-of perspective where if you quit you're left with 0 people doing an "important" job.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by bigiain on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:50PM (#19222123)
I've told bosses in the past "Your payslip says you're paying me for 40 hrs a week, which was the agreement when you employed me. I think it's reasonable to ask for the next 20hrs at time and a half, and anything beyond that at double time. So if you want me on duty 24x7x365 - to start you'll need to pay me our current agreed 40hr amount, plus 20 hours at time and a half, and 108 hours at double time to cover a full 168 hour week. That's 7.15 times as much as the 40hr/week rate to get 24x7. To get "365", which means I'm also on duty during public holidays, sick days, and vacation days, that'll come out to 8.5 times the 40hr a week rate. Let me know when that rate starts applying to my paycheques, and I'll then stop turning my phone off whenever it suits me outside office hour."

Interestingly, none of them have ever taken me up on that, but it's often lead into productive discussions about how you need at least five people to properly cover a 24x7x365 roster - and that the cost of that is quite reasonable - if you genuinely need 24x7x365 coverage.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by lotsofpulp on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:16PM (#19223076)
My leisure time is worth far more than 1.5x or 2x, with each additional hour being exponentially worth more than the last.

I would be giving up time with family, excercise (my health), and my other goals, so I don’t see how a simple 2x would even begin to cover the loss of those.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by bigiain on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:33PM (#19231222)
Yeah - of course that's all true.

My numbers are based around super-hard-to-argue-against standard employment law for other professions where I live. If you work as a waiter or a shop assistant that's the sort of overtime deal you get automatically.

When you push that minimum legally required remuneration to its obvious extension if your boss is asking you to be on duty 24x7, it's difficult for them to argue a reasonable case _down_ from having to pay you 8 times as much money.

The primary aim of that line of reasoning is to point out "if you need my job covered 24x7, employing and paying another four people with my skills to make sure it's covered for the 130 hours a week I'm not in the office is a more reasonable and less expensive way of doing it than trying to make it all my problem."

Quite often, in my experience, it's because the boss suddenly has their first customer ever suddenly demanding it, and they've not done the maths already and been immediately able to tell the customer "Sure. That'll cost you about ten times as much as a weekday business hours only support. When would you like us to start billing that? I'll need that in writing, of course."

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by president on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:49PM (#19222114)
Nothing like having to break away from a dinner with your family and switch your brain into work mode. Honestly, the worst things about this industry is everything they do to ensure you have no personal life outside of work.