News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by ALittleLight on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @03:32PM (#19202498)
Suppose you know nothing about license plates and I tell you that license plates work one of two ways, either every license plate reads "ARW 357" (it's just a meaningless tradition) or every plate has six randomly selected numbers and letters and there's equal probability that either explanation is true. THEN you observe a single car with a single license plate with the value "ARW 357".

Does this single observation tell you anything about reality? I would argue that it does - it should strongly suggest to you that you're in the "every car is ARW 357" reality. Similarly, if you draw a ball from an urn and it's red, and you know you've drawn either from the "urn of red balls", or the "urn of one million green balls and one red one" you should be pretty confident you've drawn from the "urn of red balls".

If one theory can explain your observations but the explanation is highly unlikely, and another theory explains your observations and the explanation is likely, the second theory is more likely to be correct all else equal.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by perl4ever on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @06:44PM (#19204184)
"Does this single observation tell you anything about reality? I would argue that it does - it should strongly suggest to you that you're in the "every car is ARW 357" reality."

I think this scenario is incoherent after thinking about it for a minute. You say "there is equal probability that either explanation is true" but you imply that you, the storyteller, know something about license plates. Probability is a description of incomplete knowledge, so whose knowledge are we talking about, yours or mine?

I see no reason (in my hypothetical ignorance) to exclude the possibility you know I will see "ARW 357" next even if all license plates are different.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by ALittleLight on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:34PM (#19204518)
The license plate example is a kind of nonsense magic example to just use the same things that the parent comment was talking about - you should also factor in to your analysis the absurdity of issuing an identical plate to every car, etc.

Instead, consider the example with the urns. I think that's a lot more realistic and illustrates the problem.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by chr1 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @03:51AM (#19206583)
Maybe there is some process that makes the red ball to always go to the top, so the probability of finding it is larger than one to million.

In both cases you do not have enough information to make any conclusions.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by ddxxdd on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:22AM (#19206903)
>In both cases you do not have enough information to make any conclusions.

That's why the field of statistics exists in the first place.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by komali2 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @03:50PM (#19202644)
Ok, this explanation makes a lot of sense.

However, are we able to reduce down our understanding of "which universe we're in" in such simple terms? I think I'd understand better if I knew how long we've been capable of detecting oumuamuas.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by salty_biscuits on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:13PM (#19202849)
It depends on your priors. If you set it up properly the evidence for either model from one sample would be weak. You shouldn't be confident in either model after one trial, but you can eliminate some models, i.e. all balls are green.
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by madrox on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:47PM (#19203685)
You're correct about choosing between theories, but I think what's being challenged here is how we're determining if something is unlikely or not given our imperfect knowledge...and how it was described in the article. I'm not making the case for aliens here.
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by wallace_f on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @03:07AM (#19206411)
Why is it so trendy to discount the possibility of aliens? Your comment and the article have specific, nearly-foremost intent to do that.

There's no evidence it is aliens. Obviously it could be, and it's unlikely there are not such things in our universe.

It just seems more appropriate to say "there's no evidence it is related to alien tech." Everyone having to say "it's NOT aliens" seems like some sort of cultural phenomenon.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by jpttsn on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @03:57PM (#19202706)
I don’t follow. If my “ancient aliens” theory says that Stonehenge should occur on 50% of planets, would you automatically favor it over any theory that sets steeper odds?
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by zazen on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:08PM (#19202807)
If I had confidence that you'd formed that theory without prior knowledge of the existence of Stonehenge, then the fact that you'd predicted Stonehenge would indeed be making your theory look pretty good!
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by admax88q on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:29PM (#19202997)
In fact that is an essential part to how theories are evaluated. Not just by what they explain, but by what they predict.

Most theories on physics are evaluated this way. "We theorize that light is a particle, which would explain these properties of light, and means we should expect to see these other properties of light if we test them." If further observation of light matches those properties you predicted then that's pretty good evidence that your theory is on the right track.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by jpttsn on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:32PM (#19203033)
So the UFO people are right? They predicted this sort of thing all along, without any prior knowledge of Oumuamua. I don’t recall hearing about fractal comets before?
Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by zazen on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:47PM (#19203168)
We're going to need to think carefully about what is covered by "this sort of thing".

If your ancient aliens theory didn't actually predict "Stonehenge", but predicted that the aliens would have left "all sorts of cool weird stuff", and then you point at Stonehenge and say "see, that's the sort of cool stuff I mean", then I'm no longer impressed by the predictive power of your ancient aliens theory.

Predictions have to be precise for a theory to be supported by them: they can't be vague generalities. cf. astrologers, who "predict" the future by predicting nothing.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by jpttsn on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:26PM (#19203503)
I predict “aliens would leave all sorts of cool weird stuff” and you predict “nope just more rolling hills”.

My theory is wrong, but it assigns higher likelihood to Stonehenge than yours. That’s why I don’t like the license plate example.

Re:Could 'Oumuamua be an icy fractal aggregate ejected from ... by zazen on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:47PM (#19203689)
Well, "my" theory is also pretty wrong if it doesn't allow for the human civilisation that built Stonehenge.

A theory that is wrong will sometimes predict correct things by accident. That's unavoidable, but we a) have statistical methods for modelling how often things go right by chance, and b) have a philosophy of science in which theories are forever tentatively held: your aliens theory might beat any theory which says Stonehenge is impossible, but will soon be replaced by a theory which explains Stonehenge more economically.