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Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by burger_moon on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @04:43PM (#19030072)
I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by allengeorge on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:58PM (#19031183)
There was a book [1] written about the myth that there are ethical consumers. Basically, no matter what people _say_ convenience, cost and other factors win out on the whole. I heard about the book in a recent Planet Money episode [2].

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/bu...

[2] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/epis...

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by tedivm on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:10PM (#19030317)
Tipping in cash seems like the best way to support the workers. Keep in mind the workers themselves are organizing this campaign- they want people to put a 22 cent tip (to show solidarity) and then tip in cash.

If that doesn't work then of course I'm going to drop their service. I just believe that supporting worker led actions is the best way to push change at this very moment.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by bargl on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:08PM (#19030292)
While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters.

I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work.

I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win.

Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by tedivm on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:14PM (#19030359)
I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by bargl on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:18PM (#19030391)
I saw that and that's even better. Which is part of why I don't like people jumping on the shame bandwagon without knowing the full story.

Thanks for clarifying. Good on you for taking an active approach to this and being thoughtful.

Also - I think this is where the power of the unionization comes into effect. While Unions can be a tremendous blocker of progress I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the against them.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by finnh on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:20PM (#19030412)
GP is also tipping in cash, forcing instacart to pay the full boat and returning tip to its rightful place as additional (and untaxed!) income.

Seems like a not-bad approach.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:39PM (#19030555)
Where did you get the notion that tips are supposed to be untaxed income?
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by darkpuma on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:09PM (#19030803)
It's not that they're "supposed to be." But they are.

Frankly tax fraud from people working for tips in the service sector should be among the very least of our worries as a society.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by holidaygoose on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:41PM (#19030575)
Probably from real life.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by airstrike on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:40PM (#19030566)
Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by FireBeyond on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:14PM (#19030859)
If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely.

Above? Not so much.

A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!"

No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know damn sure you're not going to report, doesn't make me the most sympathetic.

I've seen wait staff say that they believe 20% should be a baseline, for bad service, 25 for "decent" and 30% for good service...

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by rurp on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @10:11PM (#19032306)
I worked a tipped job where we signed an agreement with the IRS to automatically report a flat rate of tips, regardless of what we actually earned. So on a bad day it was certainly possible to earn less than minimum wage. That said, I don't know how common such agreements are.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by FireBeyond on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @10:38PM (#19032425)
Admittedly, that's a good point. I somewhat view that as electing to always take the standard deduction, regardless of whether you'd get more itemized.

Not quite the same, but perhaps it's a quid pro quo, of sorts. "Ups and downs in the economy, we won't come after you for earnings above the flat rate, but you will pay when lower". Which does negate my point, but such an agreement is consensual.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by brianpgordon on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:37AM (#19036549)
I've never worked at a job with tips, but that agreement sounds weird to me. Do you have any more information on that? What is it called?

It doesn't seem to me that the IRS could just make "deals" with individual restaurants since congress has to actually legislate the internal revenue code. But I don't see anything when I search for what you describe.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by kofejnik on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @05:04AM (#19033902)
> 20% should be a baseline, for bad service, 25 for "decent" and 30% for good service...

where does this insanity stop? 50%? 100%? No matter how much you tip, people will grow to expect it as baseline, and then some more

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by darkpuma on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @09:24PM (#19032062)
I've never heard wait staff making claims like that about the IRS, but what I can say is that if wait staff didn't want to get more money, they'd be quite unique in that respect...
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by markovbot on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:07PM (#19030792)
Still financially supporting literal thieves.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by throwawaymath on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:50PM (#19031851)
The problem is the company, not the commenter you're responding to. Is it really necessary for you to shame them when they expressed concern about this, just because they won't take as extreme an action as you want them to? They're expressing some honesty and self-awareness, and you're directing your outrage at them instead of Instacart.

Why don't you do something productive with your outrage, like changing your own lifestyle and keeping it to yourself? Or better yet, raise awareness without bullying someone else's attempt to process their frustration in an even-tempered way.

[dead]
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by dang on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:14PM (#19031666)
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by halr9000 on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:07PM (#19030785)
I'm not even going to send an angry tweet. I'm going to keep ordering. If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay, it's on the driver, of course. And this works until it doesn't! Once people quit driving for IC, THIS is the market price signal which will cause the system to reconfigure. If IC can't get drivers, they must pay more!

I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market to be patient and allow for this to happen. We need to teach more economics in grade school.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by reitzensteinm on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:18PM (#19030891)
Instacart is defrauding their customers, who believe the tips are going to the driver, not straight into Instacart's pocket.

Customer awareness is the free market solution to this, if that's the hammer you want to use to fix everything.

Maybe grade school should focus on reading comprehension.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by foobiekr on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @11:38PM (#19032726)
The proof of the sketchiness is that if you call the DoorDash support line, their phone reps are carefully trained with exact wording to be as misleading as possible about this. If you bring up the way payments depend on tips, they will carefully reiterate the talking points.

You can learn a lot from how companies feel about their practices by looking at how they train the customer support personnel with talking points to avoid admitting certain of them.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by throwawaymath on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:47PM (#19031829)
> Maybe grade school should focus on reading comprehension.

You had a strong comment without the implied insult. Don't compromise your point to be mean to someone.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by taurath on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:28PM (#19030974)
I can't help but feel every time someone says "people don't understand the free market" its people who can't understand anything past the most simplistic explanation.

I'm going to leave you with a quote from Adam Smith who most would say founded the field of Economics.

> The interest of the dealers ... in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public... [They] have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public ... We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate ... It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by Pfhreak on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:17PM (#19030879)
As a consumer, are you surprised that your tip is being used this way? I'd operate under the assumption that someone was being paid some sort of fair compensation, and my tip was an addition to whatever comp they earned.

Also, it's not clear to me, are the drivers told their comp for the job before accepting? Did this person know they would earn $0.80/hr?

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by fwip on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:41PM (#19031803)
The person was actually paid $10.80 - $10 of which was tip, and $0.80 was from Instacart.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by Pfhreak on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:21AM (#19036368)
Yes? That doesn't meet my expectations. I'd expect them to paid whatever reasonable wage ($12/hr? $15/hr?) and then get the $10 on top of that.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by fwip on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @02:09PM (#19038184)
It doesn't meet my expectations either, but your phrasing made me worry that you thought their total compensation was $0.80.
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by vkou on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:12PM (#19030836)
Price signals are not the one, only, sole legitimate form of communication of preferences.
[dead]
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by dang on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:13PM (#19031657)
Personal attacks will get you banned here regardless of how wrong someone else is or how badly you think of them. Please follow the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by gammateam on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @05:08PM (#19030304)
> how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service

why should it be?

ahh whaaat? mashes downvote button

since you are still reading, what is the exact thought process here, can you articulate this? So the service works and still provides a convenience for you, but is this action being masqueraded as the most effective way to get the company to change a policy amongst all other possible actions? Is it just to not "support" a company that does a single thing you disagree with? Is it something else?

I think there are more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals. Isn't that a possibility?

edit: and no responses by time of writing while on the way to getting downvote censored. Be interesting to see if it flips when a different crowd gets off of work.

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by _qwfv on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:21PM (#19030911)
I downvoted this comment because it's got not one, but two complaints about being downvoted. Also, because it seems to be very low empathy ("Why shouldn't we reward thieves if they're effective thieves on your behalf?")
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by gammateam on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:49PM (#19031846)
So ignoring 90% of the post and the entire point of it, got it

The perspective of “rewarding thieves” is a perspective I asked for

Yet you wouldnt have even commented except for the meta downvoting mention. I dont even think you realize that the “first” downvoting complaint was part of the original post and wasnt a complaint, it was because people are predictable and maybe they would continue reading and contribute to the thread

Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by Jolter on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:03PM (#19030748)
Can you give an example of more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals? Do you mean, write them a sternly worded email?
Re:Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received... by gammateam on Thursday January 31, 2019 @12:41PM (#19046757)
I would make the hypothesis that mass sternly worded emails would have the same desired effect as mass service cancelling.

or to put it another way, I would say that an individual cancelling to telepathically convey their disagreement with a company is just as effective as an individual writing a sternly worded email

or even protesting on the street