As a parent now I encourage free and outdoor play whenever possible. Winter, summer - doesn't matter. They love being outside and self-organize. Sure they're young enough still to want help with setting up games from time to time, but it's crazy how much imagination and natural inquisitive nature is in them. Parents overcommit kids today. Play is work now. And work sucks as a kid. Don't do that.

But the premise that communities are gone because parents aren't around isn't founded in anything but an assumption and is wildly inaccurate in my daily life.

As a kid I never even considered an adult could contribute in any way to my free time and to the degree to which I will enjoy it. Of course they had a contribution but it was more akin to teaching an autonomous car to drive rather than you driving the car yourself. The end result is still a functioning car, but the implications of each case are vastly different.

Maybe the particulars of the situation made it possible. Small, safe town with friendlier people, fewer distractions available, more relaxed legal framework, fewer dangers out there, etc. But the implication that you need adults to build and maintain an environment in which kids can play is only valid if that's the way you lived it so it's the only way you can imagine it. It is sufficient but not necessary. There are plenty of other ways that don't involve parents to build their kids' playing universe. And having just one more possibility invalidates the premise of the original comment.

The local shopkeepers and retired would keep an eye on the local kids too. If anything we'd be more likely to be pulled up and ticked off by the old lady doing her gardening or the old fella taking the dog for a walk than the local mums. The mums were often busy with the youngest of the family, cooking, and other jobs keeping them inside. Not all had toddlers of course.

The local shopkeepers - newsagent, butcher, baker all knew our mums as they were in every week so if we pushed too far it was certain to get back home. Everyone seemed to know everyone else. A non-automated surveillance state. :)

So what did we kids do? Went and played on the demolished old factory site, along the canal, or on the disused railway station and line. No one got to keep an eye on anyone there.

The situation of women having to work is just as repressive of women's rights as not allowed. I'm sure there's a lot of women, and some men, who would stay home with the children whilst young if it were possible. The expectation now is they have to juggle both.

Now that the supermarkets mostly "won", local bakers, greengrocers and butchers etc are usually cheaper and far better stocked than any of the supermarkets yet of far higher quality. Supermarket prices just aren't competitive any more, as they mostly stopped trying, though of course they beat the open all hours corner shops. Cut price Aldi are now the fastest growing supermarket in the UK. Tesco are laughable on price and quality by comparison with Aldi or Lidl.

There's also an element of having to prefer the one stop shop of a supermarket thanks, in part, to most of us having to have both partners working to survive. I strongly suspect if more couples were still able to support a home and family on one income there'd be many more of those butchers, bakers and greengrocers around and still thriving.

Still, we are where we are, and probably stuck with it.

tho only the rare & remarkable ppl are at the leading edge of that (as is the case with anything else in society)

https://dynamicland.org/

During my days of play we never were around businesses though we did occasionally see retired people most of our limited oversight was mother based.

For me, this was early 90s in a big European city, there were zero shops even near where we were playing outside most of the time. So sure, this was after school and being 10-14, but it wouldn't really matter (for this topic) if there was someone at home, because most days I'd be outside just after school anyway.

this mega-problem of there being insufficient spaces for play in our current society is undeniably a human crisis (tho this likely has always been the case as 'play' as a concept is relatively new in the history of ideas)

if or not there's less overall spaces for play relative to the past is unknown, and it would seem supa difficult to get data on. but if anyone has extensive evidence on the topic, i'll like to see the links

it's likely accurate that most places in 2019 has this problems (that kids dont play outside). but there are also places, including within cities, where kids do run around and play on the roads

i'd say the contingency of this affordance is based on how good of an area you live in to be able to give this privilege of play to kids, as well as everyone else in society

In other words, there were usually no parents supervising anything in my neighborhood in the 70s, yet our play culture was dramatically different from present day play culture.

The economic pressure to work to support your family is not what I would call a right, but a modern requirement (of both men and women). If anything, this is an advancement of an employers right to extract cheap labor while maintaining a moral high ground in the name of equality and phony, corporate backed, dollars-and-cents egalitarianism.

>It was bad when we as a society told women they're not allowed to work.

To be clear I agree, and, upon further inspection, so do you: :-)

>Now women have to work just to be able to afford a house on two incomes which previously cost only one.

Posting anyway because maybe there's something to be said about the choice of words ('rights' to work) here, which should perhaps be considered for rephrasing en masse (as I'm sure you're aware, but was not explicitly said).

At the same time, there were probably another half dozen kids we knew of living in and around the area whose parents refused to let them come out to play. In hindsight, they were the rising tide that seems to have taken over parenting, despite all those kids probably now being able to testify they missed the opportunity.

I think you misunderstand. Wages may have stayed the same because there are twice as many people competing for jobs, compared to times when women were socially discouraged from working.

Labor gets cheaper, i.e. people are paid less, when there are more people competing for jobs. Supply and demand just like any other market.

I thought this should be obvious, but it seems women want to be like men and suffer through the generally horribly competitive, generally meaningless, and often monotonous drab of having a “career” in some goal of chasing an ever higher number on a direct deposit every two weeks. Why? Why not have the obviously much more fun, relaxed life of being a stay at home mother and be there as your child grows into an adult and builds their own unique personality?

Haven’t there been lots of studies showing women’s self reported happiness declining in recent decades? Specifically those who pursue these cutthroat executive positions dominated by pyschopathic, aggressive men working 80 hour weeks? Why would anyone be jealous of this lifestyle?

Nobody wants to work 80 hour weeks. Women's rights is about not having your gender be a basis of disqualification for anything. If a woman wants to work the same miserable demanding job a man works, she should have every right to. Her gender should not be a disqualifier for a job.

Your argument for why wouldn't a mother want to stay at home and be with her kids could just as easily be applied to any father.

Are you a parent?

I frequently see people argue that you now have to have two incomes to have a normal middle-class lifestyle, but it doesn't square at all with my own experience. I come from a pretty conservative sub-culture, where it's much more common for a husband/father in a family to be the primary breadwinner and for the wife/mother not to work. Sure, a lot of our friends are highly-paid engineers and the like, which makes that easier. But others aren't - off the top of my head, I can name teachers (in a state known for terrible teacher pay), law enforcement officers, city maintenance workers, etc. All of these people are figuring out how to live a fairly normal middle-class lifestyle on one income.

How is that possible? We make other choices that support the goal of a single-income family. Most of us shop at Aldi, not Whole Foods. Nobody drives new cars (our nicer car is a 2005, for example). We do a lot of home maintenance ourselves. We share clothes, toys, and kids' supplies with each other, or get them on consignment. You get the idea. (Oh, and we also don't have to pay higher-tax-bracket taxes on the second income, high property taxes on big homes and new cars, or pay for daycare when we're at work.)

There's of course nothing wrong with women working or with nice cars or shopping at Whole Foods, and I respect the fact that different people choose to handle these issues differently. But don't be deceived - it's still possible for most middle-class Americans to live on one income, as long as they're willing to choose to make the sacrifices in other areas that facilitate that lifestyle.

(I won't claim to be able to speak to how this goes for poorer classes.)

Massively increasing the supply of housing so a parent regardless of gender could stay at home and still afford a house would also fix the problem.

A universal basic income would also fix the issue of both parents needing to work to afford a house.

We could also consider parenting a job and pay parents a living wage to stay at home and raise their kids.

The fact you immediately suggested the only solution to this problem would be to limit women's right to work is a bit sad. There are plenty of good solutions that would work well and don't need to restrict or rollback the progress we've made towards equality. At the very least you could have suggested limiting families to one working parent rather than specifically women.

If you plan on spending you're remote working hours supervising children, your not really working. Working at night will not allow more time to supervise children during the day.

I'm not convinced the OP was suggesting that limiting women's rights was a solution, merely that increased female labor participation will result in less time spent with children.

> There are plenty of good solutions that would work well

I'm not sure there are many.

> progress we've made towards equality

We've made progress in some areas, and regressed in others.

This is an issue about the amount of available time. Focusing more time in work will divert time from other activities. There is no other way of looking at it.

edit:spelling

Remote working means you don't waste time commuting, you can be available during breaks because you're already at home, and you can step away from your keyboard and be there immediately in an emergency. All those things are huge benefits over office work if you have kids.

Changing core hours doesn't mean working nights. It means things like starting at 6am and finishing at 2pm, so you're available to look after your kids in after school hours, or starting at 10am so you have time to take your kids to kindergarten. Or, as you say, working at night so you can be there all day (if you're one of these lucky people who don't need much sleep.)

There are solutions to this problem.

We live in 2019 -- who says it's the women that need to stay at home? I'd happily swap with my wife and stay home while she was working, but I seriously doubt she'd let me. :D

Other than that, you're right. We need people working less (on average), and we need to start building actual communities instead of online social networks.

You know you can also have men keeping an eye on children while their spouse (of any gender) work.

The other issue is that most people don't even know their direct neighbors or spend any significant time together. That is definitely their choice but that is what is required to turn a group of houses into a neighborhood. This is much harder in the suburbs than in the cities where there are already known collecting spots like stores, parks, playgrounds and courts. In the suburbs, most people get home after dark from work and kids activities and then it is off to bed for the kids and Netflix for the parents. We all need to slow the hell down.

The important thing seems to be a balance between the structured activity in the group (I have seen peers that had so many activities, but little connection with the kids they were around, because there is little time to interact in i.e. gymnastic class) and just messing around :)

Reducing required household market labor for basic living, perhaps. But, even to the extent that is true, just because in the past that was done by constraining women's choices doesn't mean that it can only be done with gendered constraints.

May I rephrase this: "without strengthening parental and co-parental rights" (this includes grandparents and the extended family).

Framing it as "rolling back" plays into the feminists' hands. Yes, your rolling back, but you're rolling back what's effectively a regression.