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Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:02PM (#18954020)
Amazon made online shopping feel safe and comfortable, at least mechanically, where once the risk of being scammed by bad actors felt huge

Maybe this was true once, but now Amazon has brought back that fear and confusion of getting scammed.

You used to be able to count on reviews for some idea of the quality of the product, but now you need to do research at someplace like www.fakespot.com to see if the reviews are fake.

And even if the product is legit and works well and it's fulfilled by Amazon, when you get the product you need to check it carefully to see if it's a counterfeit knockoff that some vendor sold through amazon's commingled inventory.

I've switched to https://www.bhphotovideo.com/ for most of my computer/electronics purchases now - they seem to price match Amazon automatically (or maybe amazon price matches them, many products have an identical price) and delivery is almost always within 2 - 3 days. I used to go to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by NegativeK on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:17PM (#18954530)
Amazon's counterfeit problem seems like something they're not taking seriously enough. For a laser printer or a lamp, sure -- I'll buy from Amazon and deal with the return if I ever get screwed. But for climbing gear, of which I've bought quite a bit of, I simply won't touch Amazon. I haven't heard of counterfeit (versus obvious trash, which exists but is different) climbing goods on Amazon, but I simply can't risk it.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by adetrest on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:01PM (#18955565)
There is also the issue of genuine items sold as new which are actually very well repackaged returns. Amazon does minimal (if any?) checking of returns and I have frequently received items that had obviously been opened and used then returned and sold to me as new. I very fondly recall opening the package for Wahl electric clippers and having a bunch of hairs fall out of the box, but it's far from the only occurrence. Of course, the item was shipped and sold by Amazon.

Also see the cases where houses burned down because of hover boards sold by Amazon. These items didn't meet the standards to be sold in North America and burnt a family's house down. They went to court and amazon won because "they're only a market place and your beef is with the manufacturer, and we can't tell you who they are or how to contact them because they're some fly by night company in China."

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:08PM (#18955614)
I've never had that problem Amazon fulfilled merchandise (but have run into it with some third-party sellers, including one that sent me a product with "Bad - does not work" written on the box, so it was clearly a defective return).

But I have had some bad experiences with "Amazon warehouse deals" where they do resell returned/opened merchandise at a discount, once the product in the box was completely different than what it was supposed to be.

They've been good about replacing/refunding those but now I only order the warehouse deals if I'm ok with waiting for a replacement if the one they sent is bad.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by kakarot on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:28PM (#18956029)
This keeps happening to me with books.

It's extremely frustrating because I know that it hurts the artist's bottom line when I have to return the same book 3 times because it comes with a worn spine or bent pages or unknown substances on it.

And I've had to report USPS multiple times for stuffing giant paperbacks from Amazon into my tiny mailbox but nothing's changed as of yet.

I thought books were what made Amazon famous? I'm so turned off by the quality that I'm wary of making purchases with their sister site at Comixology.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by bartread on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:59PM (#18955552)
Ditto on ski gear and watches or other jewellery. For any kind of outdoor gear the counterfeit vs. genuine problem becomes a serious safety issue. As you say, Amazon aren't taking it nearly seriously enough.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Bluestrike2 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:38PM (#18956067)
The scarier aspect (though the thought of the number of ways counterfeit ski bindings can fail and kill you is...alarming enough in itself) of counterfeit outdoors equipment is that it's probably more likely that beginners new to a sport are going to be buying equipment off Amazon. These are the people who don't yet have the specific knowledge to spot countefeits (unless they're blatantly obvious). And they may not know enough to realize the possible risks.

Amazon's counterfeit problem is only getting worse, and there's no reason to expect anything to change anytime soon.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by bartread on Monday January 21, 2019 @03:08AM (#18958621)
> it's probably more likely that beginners new to a sport are going to be buying equipment off Amazon. These are the people who don't yet have the specific knowledge to spot countefeits (unless they're blatantly obvious).

This is very true although, to be honest, even as a reasonably decent skier I'm not sure I could spot a counterfeit. In fact, except in the worst cases, I'm pretty sure I couldn't because I'm not enough of a gear-head in that arena.

I'm more confident with watches but, even then, it's only certain brands and models, and I'd have to do quite a bit of research and comparison to images of the real deal to spot a fake. For example, I'm not at all sure I could easily identify a fake G-Shock because there are so many different models, whereas I might do better on something like an SKX.

The sloppiness of a lot of counterfeits gives them away though: for example, I bought a Gamecube controller that turned up unbranded and (worse) with a USB connector. Of course, my old Wii - which I use for Gamecube games - was having none of it.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by malandrew on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:28PM (#18955033)
Yup. For pretty much all outdoor gear I go to Backcountry or REI. Can't risk counterfeits for technical products where specs matter.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by tedmiston on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:02PM (#18955252)
Plus REI's ~~lifetime~~ one-year return policy is much more generous than Amazon's. Not to mention the annual member dividend.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:06PM (#18955280)
What's a "lifetime one-year return policy"?
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by seniorsassycat on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:14PM (#18955321)
Poster expected to cross out lifetime because REI changed their lifetime return policy to a one year policy.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by roganartu on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:07PM (#18955920)
To expand on this: REI used to have a lifetime, no-questions-asked return policy. They changed it (sometime in the past few years, unsure I've only been in the US for a little over one now) to a 1 year no-questions-asked policy. This does not include things on clearance (they call it REI Garage sales online) as this is (as I understand it) mostly the returned items being resold to recoup costs. Clearance items (and electronics too) have a 90 day return policy instead.

I often pay full price at REI instead if cheaper elsewhere because of the generous return policy so I guess it works.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by pl0x on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:48PM (#18955167)
It's getting so out of hand to the point where most products have all fake reviews.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by bradleyjg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:51PM (#18954774)
> I used to go to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there.

I have zero interest in shopping a platform. I didn’t like ebay one bit. I’d be perfectly happy to buy from amazon or newegg but if they insist on making it difficult to do that I’ll go elsewhere.

I’m not even saying they can’t be a platform, just make it easy for me to turn that part off.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by finaliteration on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:04PM (#18954860)
A lot of people like to disparage Best Buy but I’ve found the stores in my area to be excellent and the staff to always be friendly and helpful. They’ll also price match Amazon in most cases. Their PC components selection isn’t huge, but for things like consoles, games, peripherals, etc., I feel like they’re great. They also offer one-hour pickup and in some cases will even give you a discount if you choose that over shipping.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by e40 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:20PM (#18954972)
For a lot of stuff, I agree. For certain things, though, Best Buy is a complete ripoff. I once went to get an HDMI cable and all that had was a $100 gold plated one. I walked up to the guy in that department and told him I knew this was a scam and he agreed. I told him I'd not buy anything from them and wait the 2 days to get a $5 one from Amazon. Best Buy isn't doing themselves any favors by this behavior.

There's a mom and pop computer store down the street. I went in for a USB cable that I really needed and ended up paying > $20 for that should have been less than $5. I never went back.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by rblatz on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:41PM (#18955122)
I’m not sure when you had this experience but Best Buy has wised up and started offering reasonably priced cables. They now sell HDMI cables starting at $9.99

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-4-hdmi-cable-black/616587...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Wowfunhappy on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:05AM (#18957785)
Whoa, that's new! Even as of a couple years ago, all their HDMI cables cost a good 5x what was reasonable.

I was going to note that $10 for a 4 foot cable, while fairly reasonable, still isn't a great price. But, there's also this[1] one, which is $7, supports 4K, and is 6 feet long. And, both of these are cables are actually available at my local store for immediate pickup.

[1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-6-4k-ultra-hd-hdmi-cable-...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by ams6110 on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:32PM (#18961897)
Same thing mobile providers do. E.g. the phone is pretty reasonably priced but things like car charging cables, cases, etc are marked up 10x. They are relying on people not really looking at the cost of the accessories and/or immediate need (I lost my charging cable and need one now).
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by neuralRiot on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @05:52PM (#18973464)
I do AV integration installs and buy a lot of small stuff like cables, adapters and more on https://www.monoprice.com the products are pretty good quality and reasonably priced.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by dorchadas on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:23PM (#18956001)
Best Buy actually matched my Mac for up to a year after I bought it. Allowed me to get it down about $200 a few months later. I also love having 0% financing on their credit card, though, like you mentioned, I've run into issues with PC components (considering building my own).
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by bonestamp2 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:13PM (#18954504)
Also no sales tax at B&H for a lot of people. Of course, in some states, you're still supposed to pay the state sales tax directly when you do your income tax. I used to do this with amazon before they collected sales tax in my state. They allow you to download your purchase history (csv format) and see which items you didn't pay tax on so it's easy to calculate that line item on state taxes.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by fgandiya on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:33PM (#18955416)
B&H have started collecting sales tax [0] on lots of states after the Supreme Court ruling. States are going hard on collecting sales tax. Connecticut is even asking for online retailers to give them DBs on customer transactions[1]. B&H refused to do that while Newegg obliged[2].

[0]: https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/06/bh-is-set-...

[1]: https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-online-sales-tax-201...

[2]: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xytMBKQyYdg

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by albertgoeswoof on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:46PM (#18954733)
As a non-American this seems like a ridiculously complicated tax system.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by vinay427 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:00PM (#18954834)
1. This doesn't happen for the vast majority of sites, which charge the appropriate sales tax rate based on the shipping address location. Amazon individual sellers are inconsistent, but every major retailer handles it well within the bounds of the law. The issue came about partly because it was and is still often believed that one isn't obligated to pay sales tax if the shipper/seller isn't located in the same state, though the legality of this varies at best. Regardless, this isn't the "tax system" but rather the negligence of Amazon.

2. In the country where I currently live, if I order something from another country I am charged the tax on import plus a substantial processing fee that's usually much larger than the tax. I miss the US system in comparison...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by klipt on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:58PM (#18954816)
It's because each of the 50 states administrates its own sales tax (or lack thereof).
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by vinay427 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:03PM (#18954853)
Yes, but some cities and counties also have their own sales taxes, though this isn't why sellers don't charge sales taxes.

They don't charge them because they can get away with (or believe it is legal to) not charge sales tax for customers not in the state or area from which they operate.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by wbl on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:50PM (#18955173)
It was until very recently.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by siruncledrew on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:48PM (#18957711)
Honestly, this is the first instance I've ever heard of anyone going to the lengths of recalling their purchase history to backpay sales tax.

If it makes one feel better to do it, by all means do it. Among the list of egregious tax offenses that exist, this is likely pretty low on the IRS list to audit people.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by ams6110 on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:38PM (#18961942)
The IRS doesn't care about this. It's a state thing.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by bonestamp2 on Thursday January 24, 2019 @02:31AM (#18986672)
It only takes about 5 minutes, so it's not too onerous.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by fgandiya on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:27PM (#18956019)
It's crazy, but states and cities need to get money somehow.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by mwilliaams on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:05PM (#18954867)
It is. It’s really annoying.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by hnal943 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:57PM (#18955537)
Localism is a good thing. The benefits outweigh the costs here.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Nelkins on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:18PM (#18954535)
The startup I work for, Masse[0], is attempting to solve this issue. More or less a platform for product reviews with a social network component to see exactly who is recommending a product.

I've written a little about it here [1][2].

[0] https://masse.app/

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18441347

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/fsharp/comments/9wpw84/introducing_...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by jvz on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:43PM (#18955455)
I was intrigued, but after visiting your website I'm ambivalent. The only way to truly combat shilling is to fully embrace a model where each person sees reviews only from their own personal network of sources— this drastically reduces the "eyeball multiplier" that makes mass media so attractive to marketers.

But seeing things like "Top 3 Recommended" on your website makes me believe you're falling into the same trap everyone else is, at least partially. I don't care how sophisticated your detection of paid content is; you simply can't win a direct war against these pathogens (marketers). The only way to win is not to play, i.e. don't provide a platform for mass reach in the first place. Mass media is really a type of monoculture, with all the same weaknesses.

Unrelated: how do you plan to solve the problem of identifying and classifying essentially every product in existence? Resolving duplicates, slight variants, etc. is a very hard problem, as is categorization.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Nelkins on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @02:47PM (#18971713)
Our application does only show reviews from your personal network. Well, close. The app has a Q&A format (think Instagram meets Stack Overflow), and you see both questions and answers from your network. You can also see the user that asked a question that someone in your network has answered, and see users who answered the question someone in your network asked. In this way, you can be exposed to some new content. But reviews can't really spread virally as things stand now.

Re: product identification...actually people tend to shop from the same places (think of the product coverage of the top 5000 retailers). We don't have those top 5000 yet, but we're working on it. We get most of our product data from affiliate networks, who offer up that data to drive sales back to their site. For whatever we can't import and internalize, we have a "search anything" feature which allows the user to use a web view to navigate to a product page and import the product.

You're right, resolving duplicates and variants is a very tricky problem that can become incredibly complicated. Right now we use some very basic heuristics like normalized name and brand, ASIN, GTIN, EAN, UPC, etc. But actually, we don't need things to be perfect. So long as a user can get to a product that is more or less what they want to recommend, they're happy. Also, when you are searching for a product to recommend (this is not "browsing," it's when you are trying to answer a recommendation with a specific product) we boost products that have already been recommended. This way we can get users who are looking for a particular product to recommend the same instance of that product. We also focus our efforts on cleaning up the data for products that have already been recommended, which is a much smaller subset than our total catalog.

Our data is stored in Neo4j, we find its structure to be well suited to a product catalog and taxonomy, and it allows us to derive relationships between products. The process of improving our catalog is an ongoing task, and one that will likely never end.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by tedmiston on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:06PM (#18955274)
> Product recommendations from people you trust

Why do I trust user reviews on your site more than user reviews on any other site? Or is this assuming that my some of friends have already become users and we will only look at each others' reviews?

It would be nice if you could "glue" together one's reviews across all third party sites.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Nelkins on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @02:34PM (#18971579)
Yes, your "feed" is populated with answers and questions about products from the people you follow. We give a few people who you can opt to follow when onboarding. Because you can see other users who answered a question asked by someone you follow, and see the question answered by someone you follow, you can be exposed to new users (who you can then follow).

You're more likely to trust user reviews on this site because the reviews are likely to be coming from people who you are connected to in some way.

We haven't been around too long (launched mid-November, have a team of 7: 1 iOS, 2 backend eningeers, and product/marketing/community folks, plus a few contractors), but we'll be rolling out more features to help evaluate the trustworthiness of the reviews that users see.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by tedmiston on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @04:11PM (#18972513)
Seems like a good start.

One concern is that I don't generally buy products starting with Q&A from people I follow. My process is more like: research products that solve problem X, then look at trusted reviews for X. It just seems like the intersection of reviews from people I follow and products that I want to buy would be extremely sparse (i.e., most of the time there wouldn't be a matching review).

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by johntiger1 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:19PM (#18954966)
Why the downvotes?
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:34PM (#18955075)
I didn't downvote, but probably because it sounds like an ad.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by b3b0p on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:45PM (#18955465)
It's gotten to the point that it feels like a version or intermediary for Aliexpress.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by adetrest on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:03PM (#18955582)
That's how I see it. Amazon is aliexpress with a 4 or 5x markup and delivery within a week.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by _bxg1 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:14PM (#18955322)
Yeah- and really, I think PayPal has done more to make online shopping feel safe and comfortable than Amazon. It means you can use those little-guy websites without fear of credit card fraud. They even offer purchase-protection.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by unethical_ban on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:16PM (#18955971)
With Newegg, I definitely filter on "Seller: Newegg". I don't like that they've become a generic broker, lowering their standards and promoting poor service and counterfeiting.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by tossaccount123 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:21PM (#18954979)
legally every Amazon warehouse should be seized by the Feds for knowingly helping to ship counterfeit goods across state lines. That's what happens to other retailers who do this[1].

Luckily, Bezos owns the Washington Post, has a 600 million dollar contract with the CIA, and is close to signing a 10 billion dollar contract with the Department of Defense. The new HQ in DC probably helps grease those hands as well

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/nyregion/fake-luxury-good...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by pps43 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:32PM (#18956312)
I belive that. For example, Amazon is selling "DOT approved" H11 LED headlights with good reviews. One problem is that they blind oncoming drivers (I know because I bought them and tried). The other problem is that DOT does not approve headlights, and FMVSS-108 says H11 is halogen, so this clearly violates 49 U.S. Code § 30112.

I asked the seller and they did not respond, but when I tried to write a review Amazon would not let me: "Sorry, we are unable to accept your review. You are no longer permitted to review products on Amazon because you have violated our Community Guidelines." I called Amazon and they said the'll investigate and get back to me, but never did.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Wowfunhappy on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:58PM (#18957756)
Do you have any idea what action was considered a community guidelines violation?
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by pps43 on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:22PM (#18961816)
No, they never told me.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:33PM (#18955068)
You'd have to prove that they knew ahead of time that they were selling counterfeit products rather than having been duped by an unscrupulous supplier, and I'm sure they have the paperwork to "prove" that the supplier sent them legit product.

Note that the article you linked to doesn't mention Amazon at all -- if Amazon was part of that counterfeit scheme, you'd think the NYTimes would be happy to get in a dig at the owner of the Washington Post if they could.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by LeifCarrotson on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:55PM (#18956147)
Why is that the standard of proof? Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse.

I guess you could argue that Amazon is in a unique position somewhere between, say, Craigslist (which simply allows independent sellers to connect with buyers and should bear little responsibility for counterfeits) and an old-fashioned mom-and-pop (which buys goods directly, choosing legitimate or illegitimate wholesalers and handling the merchandise). But everyone is in-between these days.

And the time for a defense from ignorance is long past...

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:04PM (#18956191)
"Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse"

Are you sure? The linked article said that the retailers that were busted were part of the scheme, doesn't sound like they were innocent bystanders that were cheated by the distributors.

Three retail businesses in Queens and two in Manhattan were part of the scheme, Mr. Melendez said, adding that they had closed

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by BeetleB on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:12PM (#18956227)
>and I'm sure they have the paperwork to "prove" that the supplier sent them legit product.

I've sold new items on Amazon (fulfilled by Amazon). I assure you, I provided no such paperwork other than me marking it as new when I set up the shipment on their site.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by Johnny555 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:57PM (#18956429)
Isn't that the paperwork?
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by 0xfffff on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:46PM (#18955160)
Its interesting that they can just get away with this so easily and make it the consumers problem. im also wondering how often consumers dont know nor realize they bought something counterfeit.
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by NullPrefix on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:10PM (#18954478)
Previously you were risking getting your card stolen by a shady seller.

Now you're risking of getting your payment stolen. Bad product/no product delivered could be seen as equivalent to stole payment.

It's an improvement, isn't it?

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by roywiggins on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:51PM (#18954775)
PayPal solved that problem already though, right?
Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by tedmiston on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:09PM (#18955294)
Not necessarily. Card theft, yes; bad/no product is fuzzy.

If a shady seller can prove delivery of a package to the buyer, it becomes much harder for the buyer to get through winning a dispute irrespective of what the package's contents were. Particularly if the merchandise is counterfeit but definitely proving that it's counterfeit is difficult.

Also with forum commerce for used things, it's difficult to sort out "this item isn't is the condition that was communicated to me".

If the seller can't prove delivery, then the buyer wins almost hands down.

On the flip side, an unscrupulous buyer can use this to their advantage with international shipping where it is extraordinarily difficult (and expensive) to prove delivery all the way to the destination across different country's mailing services.

Re:Amazon Ruined Online Shopping by jstarfish on Monday January 21, 2019 @03:55AM (#18958855)
That is not my experience. Paypal always sides with the buyer independent of any evidence presented.

Having proof of delivery did not help any of my cases. Things were still claimed lost and I would be forced to eat the cost.

Paying for signature confirmation just changed the nature of the buyer's claims to concealed damage, or they just signed it illegibly, insist it wasn't them, and still claimed it lost.

All it helped were a few cases where I was able to make insurance claims with the carrier but it never got me anywhere with Paypal.

I hear power sellers get more credibility.