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Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by m0zg on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @09:53PM (#18927921)
Can someone explain why there aren't that many autonomous _trains_? And I don't mean SFO airport train and others like it, but a real, full-size train moving people or goods around the country. Seems like every other year a train flies off the rails due to nothing more than negligence of train's engineer. Why not automate this completely? You don't even have to steer.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by jcranmer on Thursday January 17, 2019 @12:06AM (#18928525)
I'm assuming you're talking about the kind of trains pulling 1,000 mile runs as opposed to metro trains.

Train drivers do more than just drive a train. They also have to deal with dropping off and picking up cars from the consist. They also need to monitor track conditions that aren't necessarily easy to pick up from track circuits, such as deep snow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yja2VmZOfdA shows you how some trains deal with snow).

In general, the costs of upgrading track to be able to support autonomous driving aren't worth the savings you get from eliminating driver. The main counterexception to this is Western Australia, where everything of value is 1,000 miles away from where anybody lives (and is transported by trains to the coasts for export), and so railroads face tremendous costs actually getting their drivers to their trains. Unsurprisingly, the mining companies in Australia who own/run their own railroads have invested heavily in autonomous trains.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by samplatt on Thursday January 17, 2019 @01:06AM (#18928742)
The mining operations in Western Australia have also invested heavily in autonomous EVERYTHING.

The massive dump-trucks and drill rigs are going autonomous, with anywhere between 10% and 100% (depending on the site) of the heavy vehicles are now driverless.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by dogma1138 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @04:22AM (#18929456)
Closed environments like mining sites or airports are much more easy to automate.

The routes can be easily predefined, they are relatively short and you can add additional beacons / markers that make things much easiser.

I think the problem with trains outside of say closed loop underground trains that you have a lot of tracks in varying conditions, you can have track abstractions you have a multi agent environment with crossing and that at least as far as cargo trains go the engineer does more than just drive the train they handle many more operations.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by yukonbound on Thursday January 17, 2019 @05:26AM (#18929703)
The financial incentive for these mining companies are huge though, as a driver can earn A$120k before even considering the total cost of employment for a remote FIFO site.

Mine site are open cast, mine large tonnage and have long mine lives justifying the large initial investment.

Australian mining operations are also very dry, which helps a lot. Rain introduces a lot of variables.

Large scale automation is particular to the Australian mining industry at this point.

South African deep level gold mines have been working on this for many years with little success, and I think they have mostly given up.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by samplatt on Monday January 21, 2019 @09:43PM (#18965593)
The dry conditions help the automated vehicles, but there's special challenges when it DOES actually rain.... everything tends to be underwater, by a lot :-)
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by senectus1 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @02:06AM (#18928944)
not a lot of autonomous trains though... interestingly.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by cm2187 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @04:37AM (#18929515)
Amusingly, in your video, the view from the driver is completely obstructed by the snow.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by AnimalMuppet on Thursday January 17, 2019 @12:39AM (#18928640)
From the Wikipedia article on BART (the Bay Area Rapid Transit system):

> Less than a month after the system's opening, on October 2, 1972, an ATC [automated train control] failure caused a train to run off the end of the elevated track at the terminal Fremont station and crash to the ground, injuring four people.

In a bit more detail, they had trackside something-or-others that gave speed information to the train. One train mis-read the speed instruction as calling for 67 MPH instead of 20-something, at a time that it was heading into a dead-end station. When that happens, if there's no human there to say "wait a minute, that's not right", the mistaken command gets obeyed, and the train crashes.

Now: Does that happen more often with automated systems? Or less often? Arguably, less. But to this day, BART has people in the cabs of their trains, at least to monitor the automated system.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by tialaramex on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:26PM (#18928095)
The human can look out of the front window and notice that e.g. the cliff above has fallen onto the track, or cows have broken through a fence and are now standing on the track.

Something like the DLR normally operates autonomously, there's a member of staff trained to drive it on every train but it's actually slower and more dangerous if they have to. But that's a completely grade separated system, cows on the DLR is about as likely as cows up the Empire State. And still the first train every morning is manual because maintenance teams are forgetful and a passenger sat at the front doesn't want a metal pry bar in the face when some idiot left it on the track despite checking it off as recovered.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by isostatic on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @11:57PM (#18928492)
At high speeds a driver can’t do anything if they see an obstruction. Breaking distances on trains tend to be measured in miles, not metres.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by stubish on Thursday January 17, 2019 @04:36AM (#18929510)
Australia uses what are called road trains, which essentially is 3 full sized semi-trailer loads pulled by a massive single cab travelling 90km/h. A good place to find them are the highways between Adelaide and Perth or Adelaide and Darwin. At night, their stopping distance is greater than their headlights can reach; if they see something, it is too late to stop and the choice is swerving and likely tipping or plowing on through. This is why they have bull bars on the front (you might know them as cow catchers), so when there is a herd of cows on the road staring you down the cab can plow straight through without slowing.

(or maybe tech has caught up in the last few decades and they detect obstructions from further away, but that would spoil the story)

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 17, 2019 @05:03AM (#18929614)
Tech would have needed to see through terrain (road is not always flat - even though sometimes the crests and dips are so rare there's a warning sign ahead: https://media.gettyimages.com/videos/outback-road-sign-of-cr... )...and be retrofitted into the existing cabs. So, no: the tool of choice is still brute force, literally.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by stubish on Thursday January 17, 2019 @11:31PM (#18937052)
Sensors would work. If the cab isn't already tall enough (they are big!), you could mount the sensors on a pole. The road isn't always flat, but flat enough; I doubt a road train can deal with much of a gradient.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by mcbits on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:49AM (#18930057)
They could carry a set of battery packs on the roof and a pair of drones acting as scouts, one flying ahead with cameras and lidar for 10 minutes while the other one returns to swap out its battery.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 17, 2019 @03:42PM (#18934429)
Cool...but you need three to have backup, and a battery swap mechanism, and a charging system, and this contraption happens to be more complex than the rest of the car combined. I mean, it could work...but it feels very Inspector Gadget-ish.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by isostatic on Thursday January 17, 2019 @08:24AM (#18930564)
What happens if there's a broken car/truck blocking the road?
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by stubish on Thursday January 17, 2019 @11:41PM (#18937090)
The same thing that happens when any road vehicle meets a break down they didn't see in time, except the massive truck is more likely to win.

http://divine.vic.gov.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellbeing/road... has an account of a collision with a road train:

"The road train driver had slowed down to make a left-hand turn at a crossroads and Scotty had slammed into him at over 100 kilometres an hour. According to the autopsy, Scotty was over the legal alcohol limit. The driver of the road train kept going once he had completed the corner. I was later told he thought he felt a shift in the load as he slowed the vehicle to negotiate the corner."

Anyone wanting to make autonomous trucks perfect should remember the bar is actually pretty low...

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 17, 2019 @04:33AM (#18929498)
Braking to a stop is the best option (which is not always available, yes). Emergency braking to half the speed is the difference between "8 fatalities" and "hundreds of fatalities"; Ek=mv^2 - note that velocity squared*.

Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Stud%C3%A9nka_train_wreck - train hits bridge at 90 kph instead of 135 kph; a 2/3 speed, but less than 1/2 the kinetic energy.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by jboles on Friday January 18, 2019 @06:54PM (#18944259)
They can, however, hit the brakes as best they can (kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity, so this helps a lot), and warn passengers to brace for impact (example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenbrook_rail_accident#Effe...)
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by TaylorAlexander on Thursday January 17, 2019 @12:11AM (#18928548)
I agree drivers have other benefits. I will say, you made me realize that an electric sled with 3D LIDAR could check our track hundreds or thousands of meters in front of the train and confirm the track was still safe.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by sho on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:43PM (#18928177)
What? There are dozens of installations worldwide with many more on the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_...

If you are talking about intercity trains instead of metro systems - although metros typically handle many times the number of passengers - China is currently trialling driverless technologies on its Fuxing class HSR on the Beijing-Zhangjiakou route with expected entry into service by 2022.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by m0zg on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:58PM (#18928249)
Sure, there are autonomous trains in some places, I said so right in my post. But why aren't _all_ of them autonomous by now?
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by sho on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @11:20PM (#18928356)
The technology's only really been perfected in the last 10 or 20 years, well below the normal replacement cycle for this kind of heavy infrastructure. Give it time - it's inevitable.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by jboles on Friday January 18, 2019 @07:04PM (#18944300)
Because railway lines, in the past, were not designed with autonomous operation in mind. It’s really only suitable for completely isolated systems (high speed bullet-train style lines walled off from their surroundings, or Western Australian iron ore trains miles away from anyone) or lightweight metro/subway style trains (e.g. DLR, airport “air trains”) that travel at low speeds or can stop quickly.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 17, 2019 @05:10AM (#18929643)
Upgrading is hard, retrofitting is harder (e.g. NYC subway runs on a century-old technology), and most importantly, it all comes with a hefty price tag, all for an incremental improvement only. Follow the money.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by Chetan496 on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:18PM (#18928049)
Dockland light railway is completely automated. This train line is in London. I have travelled on it. There is no engine room or train driver. It felt interesting to sit in the very first train cabin which would usually be an engine room in other trains.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by isostatic on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @11:56PM (#18928488)
Except when the guard takes over driving, which happens a lot
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by samcheng on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:42PM (#18928176)
It's in the works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation

I think unions will get in the way as much as they can, unfortunately. As an example, a 'fireman' rode along on diesel and oil trains LONG after they were rendered obsolete by the fact that there was no longer any coal to shovel.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by King-Aaron on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @11:08PM (#18928304)
We've had them in Australia's north west for a long time. Interestingly they come with their own set of problems.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/mining/derailed-bhp-tra...

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by taneq on Thursday January 17, 2019 @03:29AM (#18929254)
> "...a driverless train..."

> "The driver had stepped off the train..."

It wasn't a driverless train (except in the technical sense that the driver wasn't onboard) and the quote comes from CFMEU (for non-locals, that's the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, a massive workers' union) which has a vested interest in pushing back against automation.

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by King-Aaron on Thursday January 17, 2019 @03:42AM (#18929297)
The 'driver' operates a dead man switch in a lot of cases, and that's about it. I can't recall if this train itself was an automated test bed, but a lot of BHP and Rio's rail operations are managed from the control center in Perth, and drivers are (usually :P ) aboard in case of problems.

Edit:

So it looks like even though they've had the technology going for a while, Rio only just delivered their first 'real' loaded autonomous ore train last year : https://www.riotinto.com/ourcommitment/spotlight-18130_25692...

More on the AutoHaul system: http://www.calibregroup.com/projects/project/autohaul-projec...

Apologies for the mixup

Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by taneq on Thursday January 17, 2019 @04:37AM (#18929519)
Easy mistake to make, the story was a bit misleading calling it 'driverless'!
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by kough on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:18PM (#18928053)
http://www.calibregroup.com/projects/project/autohaul-projec... is the physically largest autonomous system in the world.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by maxxxxx on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:10PM (#18927999)
I wonder about that too. It seems a much simpler and constrained task than driving a car.
Re:AI Is About To Take The Ship's Helm Away From Humans by topspin on Thursday January 17, 2019 @03:57AM (#18929359)
> It seems a much simpler and constrained task than driving a car.

It's not. Always assume that whatever limit can be exploited to maximize economic return is pursued to the maximum extent by everyone involved at nearly all times. If you do so you will be right more often than you are wrong. An occupation that is conceptually "easy" is made demanding through optimization.

Heavy freight trains that navigate hilly or mountainous terrain can rip themselves apart when they are not operated with precision. Passenger train operators can be held to schedules where deviation in either direction is measured in seconds regardless of weather, faults, mistakes, uncooperative passengers, etc.

When large amounts of capital are involved always assume that the expectations will be extraordinary and, therefore, difficult to automate.