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Re:Insect collapse by thebradbain on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:18AM (#18909848)
And here I was recently musing to myself that if something embedded into our societal imagination, like the giraffe, went nearly extinct due to climate change, that would wake people up before it's too late.

Little did I know that's already essentially happened here according to this article, and the powers that be neither seem to be aware nor care.

And because I was curious: Giraffes are now on the endangered species list as of about two months ago [1]. Go figure. When do we do something?

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/11/14/giraffes-risk...

Re:Insect collapse by brazzy on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:04AM (#18910037)
> When do we do something?

When it significantly impacts the daily lives of a majority of people, and not a second earlier.

Re:Insect collapse by petilon on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:48AM (#18911068)
When it significantly impacts the daily lives of uneducated Americans.

Educated people around the world already want to do something. Uneducated people outside America already want to do something (because their governments are on board.) It is uneducated Americans -- and their president -- that is going to do us all in.

This means the survival of the planet depends on our ability to communicate with and convince uneducated Americans. That's hard. Al Gore tried long ago with his movie.

Re:Insect collapse by WhompingWindows on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:22PM (#18915462)
It's sort of delusional to say that un-educated people and Trump are the problem. Educated people have vastly huger carbon footprints than non-educated people, thinking globally. Is it the poor people in Africa and Southern/Southeastern Asia that are to blame, or is it the rich people who literally use 10X or 100X more carbon emission in their daily lives? What about the historical emissions of our ancestors - I know mine as an American/WASP are HUGE considering all the cars/planes/meat that have been consumed by my ancestors. Compare that to a line of subsistence farmers in other countries. While I believe in climate change, it doesn't matter, I'm still on the hook for FAR more historical emissions than those un-educated people.

Carbon emissions are going up globally, carbon emissions went up in the USA, slightly different political environments won't change the reality that the vast majority of people, societies, and companies have done far less than they need to already. We can't fool ourselves into thinking a democratic presidential win in 2020 will stop this crisis, it simply won't be enough by any rational view of the emissions already out and coming out every day. Even the favorite policy of democrats/progressives, the carbon tax, got voted down in multiple progressive-state reforanda.

In summary, it feels good to point the finger of blame at the current political regime, but the reality is very little is being done anywhere except for pockets of hope like Norway, California, Iceland, Hawaii, which are NOT enough to balance out historical emissions and rising emissions in China, India, etc.

Re:Insect collapse by petilon on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @04:01AM (#18919285)
>Educated people have vastly huger carbon footprints than non-educated people, thinking globally.

But the resistance to doing something about it is not coming from educated people, at least in the US.

Regarding India and China, their governments are on board and they are making progress: https://qz.com/india/1475736/india-is-now-a-world-leader-in-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/01/11/china-...

Re:Insect collapse by vzq on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:57AM (#18911496)
You live in a fantasy world if you think uneducated people outside America give two fucks about global warming.

Most uneducated people outside America live worse lives than uneducated people in America, so they have much more important and immediate things to care about than global warming.

Re:Insect collapse by petilon on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @03:56AM (#18919262)
Outside America the governments are on board. The only country not in Paris Accord is the USA (which also happens to be, historically, the biggest contributor to global warming).
Re:Insect collapse by lucideer on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:06AM (#18910046)
> When it significantly impacts the daily lives of a majority of relatively economically comfortable people, and not a second earlier.
Re:Insect collapse by empath75 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:28AM (#18910670)
By then it will be too late.
Re:Insect collapse by EGreg on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:30AM (#18910394)
Majority of which people?

Honduras is being impacted. Our reaction in the USA is to block the refugees fleeing famine and drought from reaching us and “invading”. Similarly with Europe and African refugees.

Re:Insect collapse by vokep on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:37PM (#18914180)
A significant portion of those "refugees" are seeking safety from problems that can be solved at home, not famine.
Re:Insect collapse by ribasushi on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:35AM (#18909919)
I read a very in-depth write-up on your last question couple weeks ago. Have tried to post it on HN a few times with no luck. Won't spoil the "when" answer for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18753499
Re:Insect collapse by 0xBA5ED on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:57AM (#18911115)
Something like a sudden coffee shortage would get people involved for sure.
Re:Insect collapse by EGreg on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:29AM (#18910388)
Tigers are nearly extinct.

People don’t care.

Re:Insect collapse by jelliclesfarm on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:14PM (#18913411)
Apparently there are more pet tigers in Texas than in the wild. (Source unknown to me)

Tigers disappeared because of humans. Not the natural ebb and flow of the planets rhythms. Less humans = less impact.

Re:Insect collapse by ryanmercer on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:43PM (#18914971)
https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/more-tigers-in-america...

>With an estimated 5,000 tigers, the U.S. captive tiger population exceeds the approximately 3,200 tigers in the wild.

While not just Texas that is still insane.

Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:48AM (#18910757)
I wouldn't have any problem with tigers going extinct in the wild.

From Wikipedia: "The most comprehensive study of deaths due to tiger attacks estimates that at least 373,000 people died due to tiger attacks between 1800 and 2009, the majority of these attacks occurring in South and Southeast Asia.[1] Over the last five centuries, an estimated 1 million people have been eaten by tigers.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_attack

Re:Insect collapse by vixen99 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:01AM (#18911138)
No problem at all! So put tigers at the top of your list and work slowly but surely down the the list of 'nasty' animals and plants. Doubtless we can eliminate the whole damn lot if we really try. You'll be a hero! Or maybe not.
Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:33AM (#18911321)
I'd put malaria carrying mosquitoes at the top of the list, not tigers.

The concept of a tiger is an important part of human culture, and it would be a pity if nobody could see a real one, but they breed in captivity, so people can see them in zoos. It's easy to romanticize the idea of "wild tigers" when they live far from you, and you're at no risk of one eating you or your livestock. Humans killed most wild tigers for good reason.

Re:Insect collapse by 0xcafecafe on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:38AM (#18911877)
A lot of deaths can be attributed to humans encroaching upon the tiger's territory. If you condone tiger killing due to that then we can extrapolate that to any carnivore capable of killing humans because eventually we do like to take over their land.
Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:55AM (#18912022)
To suggest that tigers can own land is a valid argument, but it's a minority opinion. Most people limit animal rights to avoidance of unnecessary cruelty. Vegans are a tiny minority of the world population, and if it's morally acceptable to enslave and kill animals for food (which is unnecessary for human survival), why can't we kill them for safety reasons?
Re:Insect collapse by jelliclesfarm on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:20PM (#18913467)
Human beings have become destructive apex predators. In nature, apex predators.. even though they are keystone species...have an impact on prey density and regulation of the eco system. They do not destroy the very system that sustains them.

Human beings are not supposed to be apex predators but we have taken over that role without embracing the intricacies of the responsibilities involved with it.

Re:Insect collapse by Tushon on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:00AM (#18911534)
Would you say the same thing about wolves, re the wolves returning to Yellowstone? https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...
Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:13AM (#18911652)
I oppose the reintroduction of any large predator. The ecosystem benefits can be met by human hunters instead, and if they are skilled they can kill more humanely than wild predators. That said, wolves are much less dangerous than tigers, so I'm not too concerned by that specific case.

To all the downvoters, what is the maximum number of humans eaten by tigers per year you'd be willing to accept in exchange for allowing them to roam free?

Re:Insect collapse by Retra on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:43AM (#18911919)
Tigers don't eat humans because tigers roam free, they eat humans because humans roam free. Build a fence around your town and tigers won't eat you.

Don't try to build such a general argument on such marginal premises. Humans kill far more humans that Tigers ever have. Tigers are simply not a serious threat to us.

Re:Insect collapse by opwieurposiu on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:07AM (#18912132)
Well considering the problems caused by human overpopulation, I think we need to release enough tigers to eat about 100million humans a year.
Re:Insect collapse by quantum_magpie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:50PM (#18918096)
>To all the downvoters, what is the maximum number of humans eaten by tigers per year you'd be willing to accept in exchange for allowing them to roam free?

All of them.

Re:Insect collapse by xupybd on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @12:37AM (#18918508)
Really you’d wipe out the entire human race to see tigers remain in the wild? That’s an odd hypothetical but do you really stand by it or am I missing something.
Re:Insect collapse by 0xcafecafe on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:41AM (#18911899)
Most wild tigers in India were killed for sport under the colonial rule not a good enough reason if you ask me (Thats how the Indian cheetah went extinct as well).
[dead]
Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:02PM (#18912646)
I said "extinct in the wild", not completely extinct. Tigers are popular zoo animals (partly because they're so dangerous), and they will breed in captivity. If things are so bad that even captive tigers go extinct then we have bigger problems to worry about.
Re:Insect collapse by quantum_magpie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:46PM (#18918084)
Would you agree to spend your entire life in a prison for no reason? Zoos are incredibly horrible place for animals to live in, and any animal found only in zoo is as good as extinct, since they are no longer able to sustain themselves outside, should they escape the prison.
Re:Insect collapse by mrob on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @11:54PM (#18918324)
If I was severely brain damaged to the point where I had tiger-like intelligence and self-awareness, I'd be happy to spend the rest of my life in a well managed but limited environment. A well managed zoo is not a horrible place. The animals have a reliable food supply, and nothing tries to kill them. They have a large enclosure, and cover to hide from humans if they want to. They have medical care if they get sick. There are no tiger philosophers, so none of them care about freedom in the abstract. The romantic idea of "the wild" being intrinsically good is a human idea. Nature is a horrible place for most animals.

Certainly there are bad zoos, and I support legislation to enforce high standards of animal welfare, but the only animal I am aware of that is absolutely unsuited to captivity is the killer whale (which IMO might be smart enough to have some philosophical understanding of abstract freedom).

Re:Insect collapse by amelius on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:43AM (#18909941)
We don't do anything because people read too much pop-sci, pretending that we can just store the DNA.