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Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by robk on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:10AM (#18896015)
It's amazing that front of house staff are making $80-90k. That's starting salary for engineers in many parts of the country. Absolutely boggling.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by ido on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:16PM (#18898735)
That’s senior engineer salary in most of Western Europe, and the vast majority of the rest of the world has significantly lower salaries than Western Europe.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by gamma-male on Monday January 14, 2019 @02:24AM (#18901287)
Senior people definitely make less than this in europe. Unless you're taking about large corp in london.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by richardknop on Monday January 14, 2019 @03:06AM (#18901470)
Pretty sure in big tech hubs like London, Amsterdam, Dublin, senior engineers make at least this much. Probably more. I can only offer my experience from London, not sure about other places but for sure there you can make over 100k as senior engineer.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by gamma-male on Monday January 14, 2019 @05:47PM (#18907291)
Oh. But then we're not talking about equivalent levels of senior. Senior in the US can be reached in 2 years.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by ido on Monday January 14, 2019 @03:39AM (#18901591)
$80k is just under €70k, which is very possible for senior engineers in Berlin.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by apexalpha on Monday January 14, 2019 @03:39AM (#18901593)
Idk I'm in NL and senior managers make this easily.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by mtw on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:51PM (#18898946)
But in most Western Europe, you've got health coverage, unemployment and also retirement is included. Plus cheap and good public transit so you don't have to pay for a ca
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by chrisseaton on Sunday January 13, 2019 @09:40PM (#18900216)
> retirement is included

I’m not holding my breath for my European government retirement benefit to actually be useful in thirty years, to be honest.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by usaar333 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:55PM (#18900035)
Those SF-based servers are getting every one of benefits.

Engineers outside of American tech centers are generally highly underpaid.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by joshuamorton on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:21PM (#18899873)
Tawla is not a cheap restaurant. Dinner was $40/person + tax & tip, wine and dessert were extra. The food was good, don't get me wrong, but it's a fancy place.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by ra1n85 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:26PM (#18898800)
It's the same in places like NYC, Vegas, and some restaurants in Washington, DC. The patrons spend big on expensive wine and entrees, especially when the space is reserved for private events. It's also incredibly stressful, somewhat seasonal, and means working late hours in an industry that plays very hard.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by i_am_proteus on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:35PM (#18898853)
In DC, at least, front of house tips out to the kitchen. Apparently that's forbidden by the law in San Francisco.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by dajohnson89 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:30PM (#18898826)
just out of curiosity, which restaurants in Washington DC?
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by emcq on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:30PM (#18898824)
It's more than I made when I moved to the bay area. I remember meeting wait staff that earned more than me with more flexible schedules.

That said it's easy to look over the skills of some of these folks. Being able to be gracious and provide a good customer experience for 8+hrs/day in a hectic environment requires skills that take effort to learn and maintain.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by 0898 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:37PM (#18898862)
They're making the equivalent of $80k – not necessarily $80k.

"With the service charge, our servers were making $38 per hour (hourly base + hourly service charge) or the equivalent of $70,000 to $80,000 a year if you were working for us full-time."

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by rectang on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:30PM (#18899128)
It's like citing contractor hourly as if it were employee hourly. The wages are feast-or-famine, but we're only counting feast!
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by gremlinsinc on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:40PM (#18899174)
I'm a freelance fullstack dev (laravel + vue), probably intermediate-senior level. That's more than I've ever made. I live in utah and Rent is $1000 for a 4-5 bed house, and I under-price my services cause I suck at marketing. ($40-60/hour, when most freelancers get $100+).
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by ABCLAW on Monday January 14, 2019 @03:10PM (#18906019)
Underpricing your work sends a strong signal about quality, or the lack thereof. I opened with charging well above my peers (we're talking 150%+ of their rates) when I started practicing law, and not a single client balked.

In comparison with my more experienced co-workers that were offering cut-rate deals, I garnered more respect and support, had higher client satisfaction, and almost every client I had decided to stay in my book of business during transitions.

Charge a lot. Be good enough to deserve it. Use that impostor syndrome to up your game.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by gremlinsinc on Monday January 14, 2019 @04:23PM (#18906635)
Hey thanks for the advice. I'm trying to be 'good enough', pivoting a little to focus more on JavaScript back and front ends, always learning and what not. I think if I take a chance and land a few North of $80/hr clients I'll get the confidence. I'm just not sure where those type of clients exist...

Part of my issues also were ADHD made it really hard to stay on task and focus but now I'm on meds for that and I'm super focused when I'm in my office, I'm also really neat and orderly around the house lol.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by harlanji on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:25PM (#18899898)
I live in SF and am charging $15/hr for Clojure exclusively. No bites yet. My budget is $1,500/mo total, $600 being food. Awe yea. I charge what the market will bear, starting at minimum wage. China is about $45 fyi, last I paid—good talking point.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by gremlinsinc on Sunday January 13, 2019 @10:04PM (#18900311)
If you're trying to do only clojure and nobody is biting, you might want to pivot to a less obscure framework/platform...

I picked vue because I prefer it's templates to jsx, and I like vuex and it's sort of well documented for use with laravel. But if I hadn't picked vue, I'd have gone with react because of market domination.

I'm currently even thinking of pivoting from laravel to node based backends because it seems js devs make all the $$... and I'm not so locked into laravel that I can't move or jump to other frameworks.

The more you know the more you can charge...I have many friends who target a specific vertical like Fintech that charge between $100-200/hour for js/node development as freelancers. Working on teams I've made around $35/hr, solo depending on the client I've pitched 40-60... I work w/ a lot of small businesses who that's on the high end for them --they're used to wordpress devs at $25 or less per hour on upwork.

Clojure being a bit obscure though, I think freelance would be harder to secure, but a full-time gig at a shop/agency or startup who's apps are built on that framework would be easier, as long as you have a good portfolio and very active github showing activity w/ that.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by slow_donkey on Sunday January 13, 2019 @11:29PM (#18900652)
If someone approached me as a clojure dev charging $15/hr I'd think they were a scammer.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by nradov on Monday January 14, 2019 @11:01AM (#18903951)
Don't orient your career around a particular programming language. Focusing on languages makes you a replacable commodity.

What industries do you understand? How can you add business value?

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by geobmx540 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:55PM (#18900034)
Do you mean 150/hr?
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by hirundo on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:45PM (#18899981)
> My budget is $1,500/mo total, $600 being food.

How do you pay for housing in SF with $900/mo or less?

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by refurb on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:40PM (#18898885)
How much of that is overtime? The article mentions being aggressive at picking up shifts.

If it's a standard 40 hour work week then I agree - it's much higher than I thought.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by rectang on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:55PM (#18899249)
In a service industry driven by on demand scheduling, a "standard 40 hour work week" is quaint nostalgia. Regardless of hourly compensation, total wages for semi-skilled proles are forever in the sweet spot of not-quite-enough-to-get-by.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by refurb on Sunday January 13, 2019 @11:44PM (#18900723)
I understand people aren’t doing regular 9-5s, but my point was if they are making $90k working 40 hours, that’s really good. If they’re making $90 working 65 hr per week, that’s not so impressive.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by nine_k on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:19PM (#18898186)
Maybe that engineering education and / or early experience is worth something.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by onetimemanytime on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:30PM (#18898823)
Ask how much of it left in the end of the month after expenses...
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by Mikeb85 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:08PM (#18899820)
Why? It's a skilled profession and there's demand for it. Given how many 'engineers' are working on yet another Facebook/WhatsApp/Twitter/whatever clone that people really don't care about, why shouldn't professionals who provide a service that people enjoy make the same money as people building a shitty app?
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by JamesBarney on Monday January 14, 2019 @02:32AM (#18901322)
Basically barrier to entry. It takes a lot less time to turn a friendly adult into a good enough waiter than it takes to turn a nerdy adult into a good enough developer.
Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by Mikeb85 on Monday January 14, 2019 @03:37AM (#18901583)
We all know wages aren't dependant on education, otherwise teachers and scientists would be rich. But they're not. Also, most of the waiters I know have at least one university degree. Many have multiple, or a graduate degree.

Not to mention, good waiters know about food, wine, spirits and have the soft skills required to put up with people who frequent restaurants.

Anyhow, barrier to entry is a bad excuse. Education does not equal a good living.

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by JamesBarney on Monday January 14, 2019 @11:45AM (#18904296)
I deliberately avoided using the word good because otherwise we go down a rabbit hole talking about what makes a good engineer versus a good waiter.

> Education does not equal a good living

No but it is heavily correlated with one.

There are plenty of restaurants that will hire an 18 year old with no experience and literally no qualifications to be a waiter. Lots of places when they are looking for experienced staff just hire anyone who had any waiting experience. They aren't nearly as picky as development managers.

I don't know of any software companies that will just hire an 18 year old to write their code without any training or experience. Without a 4 year degree I've seen it take people usually a year or longer of spending all of their free time coding to get their first coding job.

But if you think it's as easy to get your first waiting job as software engineering job(which is very different from my friends experience who has done both), what do you think is the cause of the wage discrepancy?

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by Mikeb85 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:22AM (#18911731)
> There are plenty of restaurants that will hire an 18 year old with no experience and literally no qualifications to be a waiter.

And they'll likely be working in a chain restaurant barely making more than minimum wage, not breaking $20K per year.

> Lots of places when they are looking for experienced staff just hire anyone who had any waiting experience.

And again, waiters in such a situation will likely not be making much money.

To actually make $60K or more as a waiter, you need to have selling ability, wine knowledge and the skills to get into a better restaurant. You likely won't see anywhere close to this until you have 5 or more years of good experience (not unlike getting a traditional education).

If you're working at Chili's (or equivalent), lets say the average person spends $30. You serve 30 people in a night, that's $900 in sales (18% is $160). Now let's say you work in a high end steakhouse, steaks can run $50 each, appetizers $25 each, and then there's wine. Bottles can run anywhere from $50 to thousands. But let's say you sell a $120 bottle, which is a pretty common price-point in those types of restaurants. For a table of 2, 2 appetizers, 2 steaks and that bottle of wine adds up to $135/per person. Times 30 people per night, around $4K in sales, with tips being $780 (although, in reality, some of that goes to your support staff - bussers, host, sommelier).

Anyhow no, a coder won't get a great job right away. And a server won't get a lucrative job right away. You still need to build up to that point in the restaurant industry. You can't just do what cooks and waiters do at places like Eleven Madison Park, Benu, Saison, etc... without lots of training and experience.

So why shouldn't it be a possibility for a restaurant worker to make a 'professional' income?

Re:SF restaurants are suffocating by JamesBarney on Thursday January 17, 2019 @12:39PM (#18932737)
But now your comparing an entry level developer to someone who works at Saison, or the top 1% of waiters against the average developer.

I'm not arguing that a restaurant worker shouldn't make a professional income, I'm arguing why they don't.

Do you think it's a conspiracy by restaurant owners to keep down wages?